General Discussion

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Community Feedback Update 7/15 Community Summit We had our biggest community summit this week lasting two full days. The first day included around thirteen hours of discussions, hanging out, and eating food, and the second day was a full day of working with discussions and feedback. We wanted to first extend a massive ‘thank you’ to everyone who came out, especially the players and influencers who had to fly to Valencia right away for Dreamhack this weekend. We had many discussions across a wide variety of topics including esports, what should come next for StarCraft, the current state of the game, and ideas on how to generally improve the Starcraft 2 game going forward. There was a massive amount of information, and we will definitely have more info to share across these fronts as we work through the various feedback, suggestions, and ideas that were generated at this event. Map Improvements The new maps have definitely been a big topic within the community recently, so we also took the time to work through some current map improvements. Since we not only had two of the top mapmakers in the world, Jacky and Avex, but also the GSL partners who have been gauging and judging maps for years on site, we took the time to drill down into how we can make each of the new maps better. Below we’d like to discuss changes we came to regarding two of the maps. Galactic Process The two main changes here that we’ve came up with were adding the destructible rocks on the backdoor paths, but at a much farther distance than where they used to be so that it’s not so easy for the defender to just check if the rocks are being broken. The majority of the map related influencers agreed that the rock removal was good, due to it being so easy to watch over the rocks + there’s very little reason to utilize that attack path. However, due to early game defenses being a bit more difficult to due this change, a potentially better solution that was proposed was to add the rocks back, but much further away from the natural expansion. The other change to this map was to add an unpathable area near the natural expansion area to make one of the paths narrower, which would make early game defense a bit easier. If you guys agree with these two changes, we will work towards implementing these changes as soon as possible. Dasan Station The main change that we arrived at for this map was to add a path that is rocked off by rocks that players can use to go between the outer parts of the map towards the center parts of the map. The reason is that the biggest downside currently seems to be if the army is out of position, it’s too difficult to get back in position, and it takes too long to mine out the high yield base before it’s possible to move back and forth. Unless the community has substantial reason against this change, we’ll look to get this added in as well. Balance Balance discussions seemed to indicated that the general consensus is that balance is much better than it has been in the past. Still, there were two points which were of intense focus during the summit. There was a heavy emphasis on how we should not overreact with changes because even pros don’t know what the exact effects of the changes are. These discussions were very interesting, because we noticed that even when someone started a conversation saying ‘X’ is a huge problem, others might ask the person how certain he or she is, and that person often replied by saying something like “yeah I really don’t know for certain right now.” Nerf Warp Prism drops by reducing Warp Prism HP/Shield Surprisingly, this was the only unanimous potential change that came up. The reasoning for this change (instead of something like speed) was to allow the players who use Warp Prisms really well to be able to continue using them at a strong state, whereas players who aren’t as efficient with the Warp Prism micro should have a bit more trouble being successful with drops after a change like this. Interestingly, some of those who attended have reached out to say that the Queen buff is working so well that a Warp Prism change may not be necessary from the ZvP angle. Regardless of whether the change is necessary, this just reinforces our belief that we need more time to gauge the exact effects of recent patches before we make further changes to related things. We’ll continue to discuss the topics of the summit in the coming weeks, but we wanted to get these discussions in front of you right away as they are more immediately relevant. Please let us know your feedback, and thank you! Dayvie129
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Ghost price change This idea is to help Terran deal with things like Ultralisks and late-game TvP as well. What if Ghost's price was changed from 200/100 to 50/150? The gives Terran a really good gas sink to use with bio. Liberators are good they don't sink gas very well and not as good as Ghosts could be. With how Liberators will prioritize Zerglings or ranged units over Ultralisk, Ghosts would be the much better option because you could at least control where they fire without having to cycle through each unit. Minerals are also something Terran relies on the most when going bio, so if Ghosts were lighter on minerals but heavier on gas Terran would have a reason to use more gas later the game goes and be able to stay consistent with bio production like they absolutely need. This way Ghosts can be brought into gameplay for more exciting plays. Ghosts may be able to be used to counter DTs without committing to Turrets or even Oracles while trying to land skill-shot EMPs when trying to spot cloaked units or quick fliers. They may help significantly when handling Ravager rushes too if they're able to get a snipe off on the Ravagers too. This shouldn't be imbalanced either considering the high gas price so there's a limit on how many Ghosts you can get early game and the potential to cancel Steady Targeting. Then as suggested below, what if Steady Targeting doesn't cancel by taking damage? Ghosts are flimsy enough where once they start taking damage they typically die quickly. And/or change how energy is dispersed, make it so the Energy is used up when the shot is fired, not when the skill is used. This way if they are interrupted they aren't completely screwed. Thoughts? Zephyn5
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Blue post on demotions? I've read through the 3.4 changes as well as several other threads on the new ladder system but I'm not finding anything on demotions. While I'm pretty sure you still cannot be demoted out of a league (bronze, silver, etc) can you be demoted out of a tier? (i.e. Plat tier 1, lose a bunch, move down to tier 2?) Would like a blue or green post on this - have seen a lot of discussion but nothing specific to address this. Thanks Lokei2
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Bliz Considering "Radical Changes" https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4snoeq/first_reaction_to_the_summit_apparently_big/ Skolops122
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GM has no points?? Only MMR? Wow, that is your idea to keep ppl playing? Now i did get in GM, thats not what im complaining about..( about rank 60 atm) Personally, usually i would be laddering my a off right after getting GM but.. No points?? Only MMR? So for players like me that are pretty much skill cap for years(turning 30 in january), whats the point in playing? My mmr will obviously stagnate +/- 200pts or so... 5300-5550 (5450atm) the chances of getting higher are very slim ... And guess what, if we do attain much higher MMR than our average, will it not make it so we dont want to play anymore and sit on our MMR for the entire season so we stay in GM? Blizzard PLEASE give us reasons to play???? Currency or points or something???? The game isnt fun enough to keep ppl interested in meaningless ladder games when we will all stay around the same MMR the entire season.. Snake15
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Hots zvt or Lotv zvt? Which was better? more fun, more enjoyable? http://www.strawpoll.me/10779129 Majoris29
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Lurkers are OP It's not very complicated to see that lurkers are completely broken. U just have to check the stats, the abilities. Just compare & lol to other splash damage unit (eg colossus). Invisibility vs weakness to air Much more damage (yes check) This is completely and uterly bull!@#$ Or check his brain, I think he needs to see his doctor cause he has some serious damage. Tachikoma45
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Protoss is hard Abstract The computational complexity of several gameplay mechanics crucial to the Protoss race is studied. Playing Protoss is determined to be NP-hard. Consequently, assuming P ≠ NP, playing Protoss optimally may require exponential amounts of thinking. Complexity of pylon placement Ever since Legacy of the Void, placing pylons optimally is more important than ever. While it was already hard in previous expansions due to needing to power buildings, the new expansion makes pylons an important form of defense. In fact, certain units, such as the liberator, are impossible to be destroyed using ground units, and necessitate the use of pylons to provide defense. Claim 1: Given a finite set of buildings (assumed to be 2D points), a finite set of 2D points where enemies may attack (such as locations for liberators to siege up behind your mineral line), the problem of placing the minimum number of pylons to cover these vital spots is NP-hard. Proof: The problem is equivalent to the minimum unit disk cover problem, a special case of the geometric set cover problem. This is well-known to be NP-hard [1] [2]. Notes: If you are willing to make over 4 times as many pylons as is optimal, you can solve it in O(n log n) [2]. Bear in mind though, this is spending over 300 extra minerals per pylon. Think how late your expansions will be due to this wanton expenditure of minerals. Complexity of casting psionic storm and disruptor balls Casting area-of-effect spells such as psionic storm and shooting disruptor balls is essential to defeating masses of enemy units, as the units of other races are more cost efficient than Protoss ones. However, as our energy/charges is limited, we can only cast a finite number of spells, whilst endless hordes of marines and zerglings approach. We must destroy the maximum number of enemy units using our fixed number of psionic storms/disruptor balls. Claim 2: Given a set of enemy units, which we shall assume to be 2D points, hitting the maximum amount of units with a fixed number k of unit disks is NP-hard. Proof: This problem is closely related to the minimum unit disk cover problem. We show it is as hard as minimum unit disk cover by reduction: If there exists a solution to solve the psionic storm problem, then we can simply binary search on k to solve the minimum unit disk cover problem. Therefore the psionic storm problem is also NP-hard. Complexity of walling off Constructing a wall out of buildings is essential to defending against attacks from zerglings, hellions, and even ultralisks. Claim 3: Given a ramp of integer width y, and given a multiset of buildings of width x1, x2, ..., xm, determining whether it is possible to wall off the ramp leaving a gap of exactly one is NP-hard. Proof: This is simply the subset sum problem where we wish to find a subset of the m buildings whose width sum up to y-1. This is well-known to be NP-hard [3]. Notes: As we see, even determining the existence of a possible wall is difficult. That said, this particular instance is efficiently solvable in pseudopolynomial time using dynamic programming as the number of distinct building widths is small. Complexity of destroying overlords using a Void Ray Unlike other races whose supply buildings are firmly placed on the ground, the Zerg overlord has the overpowered ability of being able to fly, thereby providing free scouting. Moreover, they have the ability to morph into overseers or ventral sacs, making them extremely dangerous. We must deal with this using a void ray. Unfortunately, as Flux Vanes have been removed from the game, void rays are very slow, so we must optimize the void ray's route. Claim 4: Given a set of enemy overlords, which we shall assume to be 2D points, determining the best order to destroy them using a void ray is NP-hard. Proof: This is simply the travelling salesman problem, which is well-known to be NP-hard since the Hamiltonian cycle problem is NP-hard [3]. Notes: The problem becomes even harder if you take into account the optimal time to activate the prismatic alignment ability. This is left as an exercise to the reader. Complexity of A-moving A-moving may seem like a trivial problem to many Starcraft players, but it is in fact the difficult problem of multi-agent planning. Starcraft I players will understand that Protoss units, such as the Dragoon, are inherently more difficult for path planning compared to the units of other races. In Starcraft II, this problem is exacerbated by the fact that Protoss units tend to be clumped up as a deathball, introducing additional computational complexity. Claim 5: Given a deathball of n units, each with a start position and a desired end position, finding optimal routes from each start position to an end position such that they are conflict-free in space and time is NP-hard. Proof: By reduction to multi-agent planning on a graph, well-known to be NP-hard [4]. Notes: All races suffer from this problem. But Terrans are less affected, as a Terran player has sufficient APM to split his marines such that collisions are unlikely, allowing the use of efficient heuristic algorithms in practice. Moreover, as Zerg gameplay revolves around amassing Mutalisks, which do not collide, path planning is trivial. Complexity of playing Protoss Theorem 1: Playing Protoss is NP-hard. Proof: From above Claims. Notes: If you manage to play Protoss efficiently, you may have solved the P = NP problem. In this case, you can collect your one million dollars from the Millennium Prize as well as get rich by defeating encryption algorithms used by financial institutions. References [1] Das, G. K., Fraser, R., López-Ortiz, A., & Nickerson, B. G. (2011, February). On the discrete unit disk cover problem. In International Workshop on Algorithms and Computation (pp. 146-157). Springer Berlin Heidelberg. [2] Liu, P., & Lu, D. (2014). A fast 25/6-approximation for the minimum unit disk cover problem. arXiv preprint arXiv:1406.3838. [3] Karp, R. M. (1972). Reducibility among combinatorial problems. In Complexity of computer computations (pp. 85-103). springer US. [4] Papadimitriou, C. H., Raghavan, P., Sudan, M., & Tamaki, H. (1994, November). Motion planning on a graph. In Foundations of Computer Science, 1994 Proceedings., 35th Annual Symposium on (pp. 511-520). IEEE. This post is satire obviously. From: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4tdw9g/why_protoss_is_hard/ Mentalfruit12
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State of the Game Honest question. How is the state of starcraft? In WoL and HotS I remember dozens of players streaming, tournaments were anticipated, and the map community was on the rise. And now, since getting back into it, tournament viewership seems the same, hardly anyone streams, a good 80% of the map community dissipated except for the occasional good map coming out, and based on some stats I've read, the 1v1 player base seemed to have declined. I know, it's still popular in various ways of looking at it, but at least from a teamliquid perspective, it just feels like the game caught a stride and it's laying low. What are your thoughts? IronManSC15
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Rank 0 GM Former[?] maphacker PureLegacy, the 201st player in 1v1 Grandmaster League. Currently rank 0 highest NA Grandmaster, ranked above puCK. Look closely: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/7298228/1/PureLegacy/ http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/7298228/1/PureLegacy/ladder/leagues#current-rank Someone want to explain to me what the heck is going on here? Just an error? Zabre10
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My MMR isn't moving!!! Hi Guys, my MMR seems to be stuck. The MMR screen is cool and all that but what good is seeing your number bounce between a range of 3450 and 3500? I win a game it goes up 24. I lose a game and it goes down 24. What good does a progress bar do me when it never moves? TheJanitor13
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A Casual's Perspective Hey, been a lurker of these forums for a while, watching arguments over who is OP or UP, which cheese is terrible, and challenging David Kim to Rak'Shir. I'm not gonna talk about balance because I'm nowhere near good enough at the game to talk about that, since I struggle in Bronze due to not being willing to invest the time and effort for ladder. (I'm the kind of guy who likes playing lots of different games, can't stick to one too long without burning out) So, I wanted to talk about that mysterious and subjective thing called FUN, and how SC2 doesn't seem to have it as much as it could have, or as BW did.(No, lets not turn this into a SC2 vs BW thread). Having a group of friends who I play with here and there casually, often doing extension mods(One of the best additions to the game) and arcade as well. And I've noticed often there are frustrating elements that can make them quit or not want to play for a while, and that bothers me because I'm a fan of RTS and SC2 shouldn't be so frustrating. So, what's up with these unit designs? I mean, we have all these units that punish you for not being an APM god who has eyes on everything at once. Units like the Widow Mine or Oracle just poof units away, and it's frustrating because they weren't ready, because they are noobs, and noobs don't always think of every possible option they have or their enemy has. These units that just force you to react fast or lose it all are horrible no matter what game genre you are in. At least in other games, if they have something like that(Like say a sniper in an FPS is close) you don't automatically lose the game for screwing up. Another thing, economy, the game just doesn't seem to encourage newbies to expand enough, and harassment is so critical to the game at this point that since they are newbies and prefer making armies that make cool battles, they don't harass, and find themselves at economic disadvantages they can't climb out of. And finally, countering, countering all over the place. But the tutorials don't explain it, they don't tell you "Some units counter others better" And give you an example using Marauders, Hellbats, or the likes to demonstrate damage bonuses and attributes. Lets not even discuss units that look cool and powerful, but disappoint, like the Thor. So I'd wish Blizzard wouldn't forget that SC2 could become a lot more popular if it was friendlier to noobs, and actually gave them an environment where they could enjoy the game casually, instead of forcing a high-stress, high-speed, react now or die game. I've rambled a bit, but eh, I do that. Thanks for reading this. Tl;Dr Read the post Rikkmaery6
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Community Summit NDA ? Why ? I mean... it's a "community" summit. why is the actual community not allowed to learn more about what topics actually got discussed there ? i really don't want to sound disrespectful but don't we kinda "deserve" to know whats going on in blizzards mind ? we support this game with our passion and im sure we all would appreciate to find out which direction blizzard is going with SC2 in the future. the only communication we have with blizzard are the weekly community updates (which is great and i'm thankful for that, don't get me wrong^^)... but honestly, they don't really tell us anything detailed. i read the newest community update and i don't know more than before. people keep complaining about specific design issues like for example TvZ Lategame and all this stuff doesn't even get mentioned in the updates. Suddenly David Kim says "KR Zergs struggle, queen buff next week" *BOOM, BOMB GOT DROPPED* we don't even know if things like ultralisk/Liberator are on blizzards radar... do they know that people heavily dislike these hardcounter mechanics on all skill levels ? The community has no clue what blizzard is actually doing with the game and what their plans are. Blizzard, please be more Transparent. Thanks. Edit: after reading all your comments i want to add something. i can absolutely understand that they don't want to rush out ideas which aren't tested to prevent unnecessary discussion. But it would be a good start to say something like this in the community update: "we are aware of the design issues the community is pointing out since beta like for example ultralisk/liberator, ghost and we are currently testing things internally to fix these issues. if we find a good solution we will keep you informed and release a balance test map/PTR" i don't need specific changelogs or whatever... i just want to know if they actually adress all these problems the community is pointing out. JudgeP44
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New players experience So I bought starcraft 2 about 3 or so years ago when it was on sale for about $20 for WoL and HOTS because it was cheap and I've always enjoyed RTS while being bad at them. So I did the first half of the WoL campaign found it too hard and quit, many months later I returned when I was bored one night and started the HOTS campaign and loved it then finished WoL campaign and quit. Many months after that I came back again and did a lot of the campaign achievements and started doing AI games, I eventually started doing 4v4 games against real people because if I was going to vs people I wanted to do a game where I can get carried hopefully and learn at the same time, I got stomped every time. I then after ages decided to do the 5 placement games for 1v1 after practicing a lot on AI games I won like 2 or 3 of them and got placed silver I was really proud that I actually did ok in my mind but then was to nervous to vs silver players thinking I would get owned so I quit again. So now we get to current time I decided to start playing SC 2 a bit because I watch lowko a lot I also watched the dreamhack tournament and am waiting for legion prepatch so I decided to do some 1v1s. Now this is where things don't seem very good from the new ranking system I lost the placement game but got put silver 3, I then was placed against golds nonstop I hadn't played this game in ages and had done about 6 1v1 games ever I should have been placed against silvers or high bronze players, I lost a lot of games in a row. But even though I sometimes got placed against silvers they also were way above my skill level I should have been put at bronze, after about 30 games i'm starting to get an ok win ratio but for new players coming to this game I think this is a huge deterrent. The fact that even though I kept losing I was still getting placed against much better players and took a lot more games for me to get to the skill level of the people I was versing I know the ranked system was just revamped but I think it needs to be looked into quite heavily. Brayjunaz9
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Acheivements and campaign progress lost I recently logged into my acc after not playing sc2 for sometime to come back for heart of the swarm and i have noticed that all my multiplayer progress and single player progress and achievements are now zero. Can anybody tell me why? Blizzard I'm looking in your general direction for an answer please. ;) phatus21
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