Widow mine nerf should not go through

General Discussion
This thread is to discuss the idea of the proposed widow mine nerf...and how blizzard jumped the gun to even propose this.

There was a week or two where Zergs were heavily complaining about TvZ (maybe they still do)? And about the widow mines.

The problem? As every other Terran unit, "it's been figured out." Zergs basically figured out the unit now, and we see more and more Terrans disappearing from not only tournament play, but also heavily off of the ladder.

The widow mine is the last HOTS unit Terran has that changes the game for Terran. The hellbat already heavily took the nerfbat to the face and ruined the unit.

So blizzard needs to honestly look at the game right now. A Terran nerf is a terrible idea. We do not want only two races in this game. It may be easier for Dkim to balance if there's only P/Z as the competitive races, but that's not good for SC2 to destroy 1/3 of your player and spectator base (i'm being a bit hyperbolic here but there's some truth in what i'm saying).

So long story short - if a widow mine nerf goes through as proposed, I don't see Terran being that competitive at top level anymore or in professional play. Let alone on ladder, where Terran is already doing abysmally.

Terran has to have a new unit/strategy in HOTS, and the mine in it's current form certainly provides that. It would be nice if mech is viable too, but blizzard should not kill off bio mine either.

Thoughts? What do you guys think? Are Terran players happy with the direction Dkim is taking the game of nerfing Terran over and over again as he did in WOL to the point Terrans completely disappeared? (it's happening again with HOTS, which is a reason why viewership is dwindling).

To Zergs I ask, do you still feel the widow mine is OP vs Zerg? Or do you think it was simply a matter of Zergs learning to play better and not just 1A into mines?

To Protoss...i ask do you feel guilty that there is a unit in this game that lets you click one button and defend every TvP attack in the first 12 minutes of the game? Does that allow you to showcase your uber skeelz? (this is not on topic, just thought i'd take a jab at the Protosses that try to argue clicking one button on their nexus is good for the health of this e-sport).

Discuss.
I just think the nerf needs to be more mild. 1.25 is pushing it, 1.5 is reasonable imo. 1.75 is too strong but not by much so a small nerf should put the widow mine in a good place. I think the major issue is that the siege tank buff is a joke and doesn't compensate for it at all.
the world is ending .... I'm agreeing with Avilo, sort of.

As in I read the title, agreed with it, and hoped the thread would be something analytical and constructive. But I was expecting too much from Avilo it seems. The OP is whining and race baiting with exactly nothing constructive at all.

But the WM nerf IS too much. So there's that.
If the widow mine needs nerfing in TvZ, it needs to be tweaked to be more useful in the other two matchups. I don't know how to do that, though.

Even if hellbats needed an early game nerf, it's really sad that they disappeared from the meta-game. That banshee cloak buff in return did very little in terms of pushing that unit into the meta-game. I really think one of those units need to be looked into to add into the bio force. I've been playing a lot of the test map, and I think the mech/sky guns merge along with the tank buff has helped my later game banshee play, but I don't know if that'll be enough for the higher levels. It really hasn't helped my hellbat play, though, and I was surprised by that.
There was a week or two where Zergs were heavily complaining about TvZ (maybe they still do)? And about the widow mines.


It was actually closer to a solid 2 or 3 months or so, but ok.
I agree, terran could use more options.

10/12/2013 10:42 PMPosted by avilo
just thought i'd take a jab at the Protosses that try to argue clicking one button on their nexus is good for the health of this e-sport).


I shudder to imagine defending early speedivac harass without the msc. I think it is kinda necessary, but it could be toned down to 30-45 seconds.
The overseer buff is enough as far as we've seen to lower the widow mine success rate as seen in intel extreme masters and the last WCS games,it avoids the a-move Zerg to overwhelm terran but it is no longer the "OP" unit in the meta-game.
Even with radius nerf, widow mines will be more than cost effective.

I agree, terran could use more options.

just thought i'd take a jab at the Protosses that try to argue clicking one button on their nexus is good for the health of this e-sport).


I shudder to imagine defending early speedivac harass without the msc. I think it is kinda necessary, but it could be toned down to 30-45 seconds.


Tone it down by half and have fun never expanding in PvP ever again
The change is extreme and cant happen. it wont happen. it must not happen.
The changes terran gameplay could see are unable to go through with out the mine as dominant in play (just in its popularity alone) as it is.

Think of it this way, with the widow mine nerf, how much can we buff more interesting terran units?
So long story short - if a widow mine nerf goes through as proposed, I don't see Terran being that competitive at top level anymore or in professional play. Let alone on ladder, where Terran is already doing abysmally.


Terran is not "doing abysmally" on the ladder - they have good winrates and are doing well. Their representation is lower in higher leagues, which has never, ever, been proven to have anything to do with balance, considering the amount that it fluctuates mid-season and especially between the seasons when there were no balance changes and the metagame remained relatively static.

Terran has to have a new unit/strategy in HOTS, and the mine in it's current form certainly provides that. It would be nice if mech is viable too, but blizzard should not kill off bio mine either.


Mech is viable - check out HTOMario's stream. You might learn something.

Thoughts? What do you guys think? Are Terran players happy with the direction Dkim is taking the game of nerfing Terran over and over again as he did in WOL to the point Terrans completely disappeared? (it's happening again with HOTS, which is a reason why viewership is dwindling).


Wow, one upgrade requirement and a proposed radius nerf along with a proposed siege tank and mech buff = NERFING TERRAN OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Terrans have been nerfed one time thus far. If the patch goes through, they will have had 2 nerfs and 2 buffs. Stop playing the victim and deal with it.

Also, love the bit about e-sports. "MY RACE BEING MADE BALANCED IS THE REASON E-SPORTS IS DYING" - get over yourself.

To Zergs I ask, do you still feel the widow mine is OP vs Zerg? Or do you think it was simply a matter of Zergs learning to play better and not just 1A into mines?


A lot of terrans seem to get this idea in their heads that somehow melee units function and control identical to bio units. Zerg players have been splitting their zerglings since day 1 WoL, especially ZvZ. You keep pretending like micro is some new concept for them, or that splitting zerglings vs mines is the equivalent to splitting marines vs banelings. It's not.

To Protoss...i ask do you feel guilty that there is a unit in this game that lets you click one button and defend every TvP attack in the first 12 minutes of the game? Does that allow you to showcase your uber skeelz? (this is not on topic, just thought i'd take a jab at the Protosses that try to argue clicking one button on their nexus is good for the health of this e-sport).


I honestly don't see how anyone in their right mind could take you seriously. Your bias is as obvious as it is revolting. You say ridiculous things like, "zergs just need to learn not to 1-a!" and "omg noob planetary nexus killing e-sports!" while lauding terrans for being so brave in the face of that one nerf they got that time that made them get a single upgrade at some point in the game.
10/12/2013 11:34 PMPosted by DaveDroid
The change is extreme and cant happen. it wont happen. it must not happen.


"hell bat nerf won't go through 100%"- davedroid 2013
I agree pretty much fully with everything you said Snow, except for this:

Mech is viable - check out HTOMario's stream. You might learn something.


Mario's success is still only in GM, there is quite a ways to go from there; what marios success DOES prove is that mech is not nearly as figured out as bio...but that it is viable...well that's a little vague to be sure...

Is mech good for laddering and BoX against Zerg? I think we could make a convincing argument there, and include mario in that but the way you state just flat out "Mech is viable --> Mario" is kind of ... I dunno ... poorly thought out IMO.
The Widow mine nerf they are proposing will destroy terran viability at the top level. If they wanted to fix the matchup they would start nerfing the overpowered mobility units like Mutalisks, vipers, medivacs and phoenixes. After that they can start buffing the viability of mech and starting nerfing the stupid hard counters in TvP like tempests and immortals.
I think the widow mine nerf should be looked at or at least toned down. Zergs ARE figuring it out.
I even think PO could be toned down, but without it, early pressure and 1/1/1 would still force protoss to open 3gate then robo/storm or we'd lose every single game... and can still lose macro games easily because terran can CC first and win with bunkers and WMs (seriously, they kill immortals and stalkers easy). However, Since stim bio is better than any toss units and medivacs are never dead supply, I advise avilo not to QQ so much and without a serious army supply advantage, toss would be torn apart, murdered, and then outmacrod for a terran a-move.
10/12/2013 11:47 PMPosted by Arianity
The change is extreme and cant happen. it wont happen. it must not happen.


"hell bat nerf won't go through 100%"- davedroid 2013
The irony is he is half right, Nobody built hellbats again.
Jesus christ.
How many damn threads do you have to make? We all know how much you dislike the mine nerf, using the same excuse worded differently with different title doesn't make your argument more convincing than any other thread.

The widow mine nerf is going to nerf bio mine, which is what blizzard WANTS to do because they are buffing bio tank/mech style to accompany with the nerf.

As a Terran, I am glad that I can copy more builds that aren't bio mine anymore. It might be more difficult game to play but it will be a more diversed game to play. Oh do I go mech or bio tank on this map because x and y reasons? At least I can have room to explore other options.

It is !@#$ when the mine hit is automatically aimed and not manually targetted. This makes for a %^-* playing experience, even when I am playing it because it feels like the game is decided by how I put the mines and how good the mine shots are.

As a zerg, I am damn happy this is getting nerfed. Mine hits are fk-ing luck dependant. The game depends way too much on MINES.
A nice mine hit? Great trade for terran.
An overlapped mine hit? Great for zerg.

And finally as a Protoss, do you feel guilty for having medivac flying around and has complete map control for the entire mid game? Wtf should I feel guilty for having a better defense against not only stupids but also mutas and other !@#$ and a unit that can allow me to fake aggression with recall.
10/12/2013 11:51 PMPosted by fingrknitter
Mario's success is still only in GM, there is quite a ways to go from there; what marios success DOES prove is that mech is not nearly as figured out as bio...but that it is viable...well that's a little vague to be sure...

He has beaten pros before.
To be fair, the pros he faces probably do not go against Mech much.
Mario's success is still only in GM, there is quite a ways to go from there; what marios success DOES prove is that mech is not nearly as figured out as bio...but that it is viable...well that's a little vague to be sure...

Is mech good for laddering and BoX against Zerg? I think we could make a convincing argument there, and include mario in that but the way you state just flat out "Mech is viable --> Mario" is kind of ... I dunno ... poorly thought out IMO.


When you see Mario beating high level pros in the GM ladder and getting so high on the KR ladder with it that he's ranked 49th in masters for the entire server, it's looking pretty viable. Viable meaning "capable of working successfully; feasible."

His style is not "make a bunch of tanks and hellions and then complain that it doesn't work every game", it is an entire new approach to mech which has been shown to be incredibly effective.

10/13/2013 12:01 AMPosted by Memadbyte


"hell bat nerf won't go through 100%"- davedroid 2013
The irony is he is half right, Nobody built hellbats again.


Hellbats aren't as frequent as they were. We certainly don't see terrans going for non-stop hellbats drops for the entire duration of the game as we did before the nerf. We don't see terrans winning games largely due to a single good hellbat drop going well anymore. They are still built, they are not still built constantly, which was the point of the nerf.

The widow mine nerf is going to nerf bio mine, which is what blizzard WANTS to do because they are buffing bio tank/mech style to accompany with the nerf.

As a Terran, I am glad that I can copy more builds that aren't bio mine anymore. It might be more difficult game to play but it will be a more diversed game to play. Oh do I go mech or bio tank on this map because x and y reasons? At least I can have room to explore other options.

Blizzard is not making the game more diverse, instead of being able to do macro games with bio mine, now you can do a 3 base tank allin every game. This is actually worse in every way for not only for spectators but people that actually want to have fun playing the game. What they actually should do is buff mech and nerf vipers, so at least terran has a choice between bio mine or mech.

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