Balance Test Map

General Discussion
Post Limit:
Prev 1 3 4 5 49 Next
Nooooo, raven viking is already a nightmare to deal with in TvZ, dont buff mech further more, nerf protoss counter's to mech instead!!!

Mech IS viable versus zerg, Skyterran IS op versus zerg, mech IS viable versus terran.

Protoss is the problem, nerf the god damn immortals!

Also for the god's sake, show zerg some love, some viable drop, nydus, an actual usefull AA!


stop asking for nerfs so other races don't have to change.

buff mech and buff zerg's anti air abilities
Posted by Terric
So what the !@#$, why decreasing it to 40 secs?! it doesnt change the early game at all. You won't see different builds in tvp, I promise!

If a nerf that massive went through, you absolutely would see a lot more aggressive and successful bio pushes in early to midgame TvP, especially at the professional level.


yes... why not... better to see allins and cheese from protoss and terrans cant do anything early/mid game?

i really hope this is not close to the final balance change
If a nerf that massive went through, you absolutely would see a lot more aggressive and successful bio pushes in early to midgame TvP, especially at the professional level.


yes... why not...better to see protoss allins? cheese... and terran cant do anything?

Photon Overcharge doesn't aid Protoss allins. That's the Mothership Core's other two abilities. I must be missing something, because your response feels a bit off the wall.
Brace yourselves, avilo is preparing a post.
If your thinking about Building in the Ghost energy upgrade, that that wouldn't be a bad idea at all.

Actually, I might consider doing something like that for SC2+ so I can do something else with the Upgrade icon.

Hmmmm that could work nicely.
01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks

About 10 extra anti-armor damage on Siege Tanks (any less than 6 has no effect at all) would help mech a lot against Protoss because it allows mech to finish off Immortals with focus-fire much faster after removing their shields with EMP (3 hits instead of 4 at +2 and +3 weapons).
The damage would also allow Tanks to kill Colossus in 1 less hit. The faster kill rate on Colossus will cut Protoss DPS against Hellbats sooner and allow them to serve as a more effective meat-shield.

Another positive of this change is that the effects on other match ups are limited:
->The effects on TvT should net to zero. Siege Tanks would kill Marauders, Thors, and Vikings a bit faster with upgrades, but:
-Marauders die in the same number of hits if they were recently stimmed.
-the Siege Tank's friendly-fire damage is also increased, making plays that abuse the Tank's friendly-fire slightly stronger against Tanks.
-landed Vikings are always a bad choice against Siege Tanks anyway, no net change there.
-Both bio and mech use Siege Tank support.
-Thors are not very good against any Terran ground units that are not strictly anti-light, and do not have much of a purpose in the match up.
->The effects on TvZ should be limited:
-Roaches die in the same number of hits from direct fire. If the splash damage causes any problem it can be toned down by tinkering with the splash ratio. Siege Tanks always served the role of an armor-buster in Brood War anyway.
-The Ultralisk will consistently die in 1 fewer hits to Siege Tank fire, but they remain a very beefy unit that is effective against Hellbats.
-Counters that utilize the Siege Tank's friendly-fire such as Brood Lords and thrown infested Terran (niche) will be more effective. -Vipers continue to stop Siege Tanks from firing altogether.

If increasing the Siege Tank's anti-armor damage does cause any significant issues in the other match ups (which is unlikely), those issues could be mitigated by nerfing the Siege Tank's splash ratios slightly.

Another possible option for Siege Tanks: A small anti-massive bonus
I know this is unorthodox, but Siege Tanks can be buffed slightly against Archons by adding some anti-massive damage to their attacks.
Archons are very durable against mech at the moment and shred Hellbats relatively quickly. The Siege Tank used to be a counter to this unit because of the way shields worked in Brood War, and because the Archon was actually a large (armored) unit in that game.

Anti-massive damage would help to make mech a bit stronger specifically against this unit without any negatives because tag bonuses do not stack in StarCraft II. Since the Archon is the only massive unit without an "Armored" tag, anti-massive damage would only affect this unit.

01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
buffing mech air,

Please don't do this. Zerg seems to have a lot of difficulty with Sky-Terran because of the Raven's Point-Defense-Drone. Buffing Sky-Terran is more likely to cause problems for Zerg than it is to help mech against Protoss (where Storm, Feedback, and Tempests happen to be very strong against Terran air units).
PO change is obviously good.

Burrow change is nice, but still it's too expensive to get all roach speed, burrow, burrow movement and it comes rather late. I would consider decreasing the cost of tunneling claws at least to 100/100 and making it fast upgrade. And still it would be probably not used. Where one I could see it being used is when there would be no upgrade at all, and it would just come with burrow (you still need speed anyway). But in that case, the speed underground might need nerf, it would have to tested.

Mech is still bad vs P. But buffing terran air would just break zvt. Skyterran already just wins if terran can defend long enough. There are plenty of good ideas to buff mech vs P. Like emp rounds for tanks, making tanks do two shots instead of one, but with half damage, changing how immortal shields work.. etc. Easier EMP is good to, ghost shouldnt be 100% neccessity.
Photon Overcharge doesn't aid Protoss allins. That's the Mothership Core's other two abilities. I must be missing something, because your response feels a bit off the wall.


no it does not... i mean that terran cant be aggresiv.. but protoss can... (can do too much compared to terrans) and your response feels a bit off the wall for me...
Also the speed and vision of Mothership core needs to be nerfed aswell, 2 base blink makes mech opening not viable
01/02/2014 02:56 PMPosted by TerranicII
Please don't do this. Zerg seems to have a lot of difficulty with Sky-Terran because of the Raven's Point-Defense-Drone.


The only zerg unit that could shoot through it was nerfed into the dirt. Not that it mattered a whole lot Zerg always had issues with Ravens
Can we also look at unlocking turret at the armory to allow safer mech builds in TvP?
Photon overcharge duration decreased from 60 to 40

We believe the the Mothership Core is very well-rounded unit. We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit. We’d like to see more options for Terran and Zerg to attack, skirmish, or harass a Protoss player who plays defensively.

Hmm see how it goes.. Will be popular with most Terrans that is for sure.

01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
Roach burrow move speed to 2.25

Im cool with it, inb4 protoss tears

01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
The next step for Terran mech

EEEEEEEEE

01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated.

More armored damage for tank. Idk how the EMP thing would effect TvP.
But it is good to hear.
01/02/2014 02:56 PMPosted by Damian
Photon Overcharge doesn't aid Protoss allins. That's the Mothership Core's other two abilities. I must be missing something, because your response feels a bit off the wall.


no it does not... i mean that terran cant be aggresiv.. but protoss can... (can do too much compared to terrans)

Right. So you agree with testing a reduction to PO duration, then? I also agree; I just feel that in the end a 20 second reduction is overkill that will damage Protoss macro too much. 10 seconds is much more reasonable.
I think a huge factor for roach play is the need for upgrades/cost. Currently, to have viable Roach Micro you need a ridiculous amount of resources devoted to Roach Speed(100/100), Tunneling Claws(150/150), and of course, Burrow(100/100) thats 350/350 and you're still left with 0/0 roaches.

My thoughts. Reduce cost of Tunneling to 100/100 (considering you can use slow roaches if you rely on tunneling)

- OR -

Reduce cost of Burrow to 50/50. This opens up some hatch level tactics that can actually help Zerg.

Zerg have ZERO harassment options before muta. If burrow was accessible earlier (ie. cheaper) we could burrow at expansions and poke with a small amount of roaches early on. We won't be able to break our opponent with these tactics, but we could slow them down on par with hellion pokes and mc/stalker pressure.


I would like to see Roach move speed, and Tunneling claws combined into a single upgrade costing 200/200.
For buffing mech sky, i think the approach should be making the viking a more micro-able unit. We see Protoss has phoenix, Zerg has mutas and Terran has no high micro air combat unit. Making the viking more microable may be all it needs to make sky terran = sky toss as the raven is straight awesome but t just lacks the ability to trade efficiently with sky toss.

Combining upgrades is also another great idea that should be looked at. Eg engi bay upgrades, roach upgrades etc etc. There are tons of upgrades that you never see in game at any level that could be used if they were combined into other upgrades.
Right. So you agree with testing a reduction to PO duration, then? I also agree; I just feel that in the end a 20 second reduction is overkill that will damage Protoss macro too much. 10 seconds is much more reasonable.


i agree, but a reduction to 40 sec... ya so much change, wow.
01/02/2014 03:01 PMPosted by Damian
Right. So you agree with testing a reduction to PO duration, then? I also agree; I just feel that in the end a 20 second reduction is overkill that will damage Protoss macro too much. 10 seconds is much more reasonable.


i agree, but a reduction to 40 sec... ya so much change, wow.

*nods*
man just add dmg vs shield on tank... so its stronger against archons and zealots...
I am a freakin Protoss player but seriously this is a PTR server can you start testing more extreme things ?
As a protoss im freaking happy when my opponent plays mech because it just sucks.
Mech air im not sure cause vs zerg its really strong and i dont even see an effective way to counter late game air mech.

Photon Overcharge... I dont really get the point of nerfing the duration i mean what does that change ?
Its not chaning anything in PvT against early pressure or drops and it wont change !@#$ in PvP.
In PvZ it wasnt that usefull anyway ( except for early game)
01/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Dayvie
We like the early aggressive options the Mothership Core provides, such as being able to recall back at the right moments, but we wonder whether the defensive nature of the Mothership Core can be toned down a bit.


Avilo: I honestly think offensive should be toned down also. It's nice for the Toss early game to be varied, but in combination with the power of the current Mamacore, it makes for those all-ins to be pretty tough to deal with. I've seen great suggestions of making Time warp cost more so you can't throw down two at a time or make it so your "get out of jail almost free card" can't be used in unison with the time warp when an all-in or pressure goes wrong.

Terran has a "get out of base free card" too, it's called medivac stim. Photo Overcharge was given to help counter medivac turbo. Anything to make protoss worse right? Make your fanbase happier after all the tears you've shed. If there was such thing as racist in SC2 you'd be the leader of the terran !@#. 5 years running.
Blizzard thank you. I just wanna say thank you. happy new year. All my problems have been solved, as long as you know there is some sort of problems with the matchup and your going to work to fix it i am a happy player. Now i can start gaming again srsly.

I like the idea of easier access to EMP but still, i feel ghosts should be used more frequently it is still tough

i like the idea of more terran mech push, but you shouldnt be getting ghosts + they wont have upgrades on ghosts if going mech.

When you write "We believe we can push mech usage more as well. Some options we’re looking at here are: higher armored damage for siege tanks, easier access to EMP when going mech (such as building the energy upgrade into the unit), buffing mech air, and so on. However, this is the area in which we’re the least certain. Detailed feedback based on good reasoning is greatly appreciated."

I like everything except the EMP , i think higher armored damaage for siege tanks is good, it will help in TVZ matchup vs roach, stalker, it will help in TVT vs more tanks and wont be such a stailmate. But i think you should decrease costs of mech upgrades maybe to what brood war had as they are still very expensive. But the EMP upgrade doesnt make sense, the energy upgrade should be already done no matter what, you shouldnt ha9ve to upgrade it but , ghosts will not be used in mech wars. Instead why not buff point defence drones or thors?

Join the Conversation