Balance test map follow-up

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You really know what is really happening this is the true!!!!!!!!!!
Why Blizzard is taking 6 days to have statistics of something that has been happenning for 1 year this matchup(T V P) FIX THIS !@#$ING BULL%^-* OF MATCHUP
01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.


Does this mean you are putting emphasis on everything? Which means you are not putting emphasis on any particular thing?

David Kim please L2W. Learn to write.
I used to wonder WHY people would quit this game, now im starting to understand. It is frustrating to have the Blizzard team completely disregard the community's pleas to balance out the match up. Its been months now, how much longer will it take to at least admit the race is broken.
WHOAH! Ok... Thats a little... Over the top... I can say that we all dont hate him... Hes a nice person and he really is just doing his job and has a lot more stat info than the average player. But since the terran population has decreased and the protoss population increased it is hard to get a better assessment of balance. But please! There is really no need for this anger!
lol supercereal its miserable even if you are bomber..
I also don't understand how you're able to produce a stat factoring out player skill and only looking at player strength from the ladder...the only way would be to consider the player skill as their league, and with the current state of ladder this would be a complete misrepresentation...
Heres the issue, and you cant say things are balanced based on winrates.

As an example, look at proleague, protoss are getting beat, but the fact is there is 4 times as many protoss players, and the only reason terrans have a good winrate is because their sending out only the players that can hack tvp, IE, TY is 3-0, Maru is 4-0 etc.

The issue is not that terran players cant win tvp, its HOW and WHEN they win. I would like to see statistics on tvp games that end before 10 minutes. I guarantee its probably 80-90% protoss favored. The game is horribly predictable. Either A) Terran dies in early game to X build, B) Terran does game ending damage in midgame, or C) Terran gets walked over in lategame.

You can always claw yourself to a decent winrate, but the number of ways you can die before 10 minutes as a terran is ridiculous, and the likelyhood of you winning lategame vs protoss if you dont have immaculate control is pretty slim.

This is why they arnt sending out terrans in proleague, its not because they cant get a decent winrate, its because based on luck or build order or mistakes, terran is more likely to be the one dying
That should shut up the Silver league Terran trolls that want easy wins.

Do you guys have any idea how many games were played since the season started ? Hint: way more than any sample used in any troll/QQ thread we see on this forum.
I think if a lot of people stopped telling David Kim to " off" or other useless insults, there might be more back and forth between us and his team. Clearly if he attempts to do that now, he would be attacked by a lot of you out there.

As for him mentioning taking the player's skill out of the stats, I would assume it is something like: the data taken is between the same league players with similar MMR. So a gold player (for example) matching up against a plat or diamond player, this statistic is removed. Thus ensuring you have gold vs gold, or plat vs plat etc...

I admit that the sample size of the data is not ideal considering these issues seem to have been around for much longer, but remember that data taken from the 3-9th (or whatever the exact dates) is a decent period in itself, and you could not imagine these results are going to be heavily skewed in the following same time frame.

I do however think that the correct direction if slightly changing the matchup is required, is having the MCORE abilities as upgrades at the cyber core or something similar.

All these are my opinions however...
I saw this recommended on reddit (I apologize I don't remember what thread so I can't give proper credit). The suggestion was to give tanks/marauders a buff against shields. This would help strictly in TvP and not impact TvZ or TvT at all, and would be especially helpful in dealing with zealot/archon armies.

Also slightly increasing the range of missile turrets would be nice so a mineral line can be properly defended by 1 turret instead of needing two against fast oracle. Makes for less of a financial investment for Terran which also helps protect against DT rushes.
Hi Community,
first of all Blizzard didn't get, what the Community mean(a Problem which is often happend in the past). Yeah i am Blizzard show the stats and HAHAHAHA you see all fine.... . No, not really... not really at all. What we need is a design change. The only thing what change in TvP since 3 years ago (yes 3 years!!!!!!): Mothershipcore and the biggest Joke of all time.. the most of you know it... the OPracle!!! ^^ (when you looked at the Komments of the Protoss !!!Pro!!! Player on twitter after they made Oricals insane fast, you know what i mean, shame on you David Kim, you read that post's by all the Harstems, Incontrols??? and even the Korean lought about you, i wont say what the Terran worte, because i think this is FSK 18 ;D)

And it changed it in a bad way.... no more early aggression by the Terran... really nothing out of 2x11 Rax all in. Yay that's what i want to see i watch a Stream.... 10 min no rush on the one side. What has changed on the outher side (since WoL Beta). Mulitible more All in's by Protoss and what is more IMPORTANT!!! the old all in's like Blink/...... are much harder to defend because of the Mothershipcore!!! THIS TIMEWARP on a Ramp and the Terran heart is bleeding, while Blink stalker demolishing the Main. Yeah that is what we want to see on the Streams. 3 Years the same and now 10 min no Rush rules for Terran since Hots and more all ins by Toss. Nice well done BLIZZARD, but we can say the balance is fine, yay wuhu(is like i say, yes clothes cost now only 50%, but the envirument get rapes.. i know a bad
comparaison, but i hole you get what i mean)! Yeah and also the Nexus Cannon offers ridicilous fast 2 Forges you can nowadays get. And the Terran even when he scouts it he can do.....right.... NOTHING.
(btw.to people they think aahaha an outher bronze League Player who think he understand the Meta... i am Master on EU Server, and 2 Seasons ago when i played seriously on my main acc (then i had to many smurfs and only stay on Top 25 Master) i was in Top 8 Master Rank 7 when i remember ^^.

And now you maybe ask yourself... what is the conclusion... yeah you have seen it by the Koreans.. this Matchup went into the most boring way what could happend. It begun in the GSL... it begun with (for me) THE TERRAN..BOMBER... yeah first of all we saw a ridicilous safe play and then 2 Base all in with SCV pull by Terran's. IT was very sad to see this on the highest level, kind of like every game.... out of the depression by the Terrans because they are weaker in the late game and more weaker in the early so.... now some may say...HAHAHAH stupid MarineMario they dont do this anymore..... and what is the reason for.... it is the same reason why Stephano was lately not so successful anymore... they begun to counter it. So now the next evolution in TvP begun. Here big shoutout to MaruPrime... who had an impotant idea... he startet to skip Ghosts and tried with insane micro to delay and kill the Toss, but here you see again.. Nexus Cannon is also quiet good(also in so many outher ways.:I). Insteads of that Toss starts with way more Cannons and so on.... yeah now we see in Proleague how weak Toss is and we just stupid..... yeah i watched Proleague and in the most cases Toss did what they can best in the moments (not because they are noobs, because it is very strong), they startet to all in the !@#$ out of it, yeah but now people will say yeah this are 50% of the Game, what are with the outhers.... yeah well when you saw Maru in the Proleague this League you know what i mean.... he is only on an outher Level like his Protoss opponents (Blizzard wrote "we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength"... and the one variables is definitly by Maru and also Flash and TY did very well, but really when i saw how Maru kills with some Morauders and a few Marines 2 Kolossi and like 15 Zealots+Stalker (ofc it was a mistake by the toss) his Opponent looked like low Master against GM :D. And this in all Games Maru played, he didnt only won, he demolished his Oppnents and play like a God. It was like deinstall SC2 noob!!! ^^ and this to Proleague players... insane.
Lol i dont know if i forgot something, but Blizzard i give you a Tutorial in 2 Steps how to really change the Matchup TvP in a good way and not in a "3 years the same %^-* but in hots we make it more boring for Viewers and Terran Player:
Step 1: Fire David Kim, and all outher who are involved in the balance (sry made, but you never try something, you even could do it in a test map, but no, like a shy girl do like "aliby patches"). Yeah they made a good balance, but they also make this game very boring to watch exeptly in TvP.

Step 2: Resume the Oricals!!!! Or nerf the Speed and Damage, they kill eco lines like no outher Unit.Really i watch a lot of therran streams, they scout the Oricals prepare for them and then... then loose even with turrets like 5-10 SCv, while the build a building or the transfer to the natural,... . And when you wont change the design of Toss (and Toss is really a boring race, camp until 200/200 or all in, they dont have really good opportunitiers to harras.. yeah some say warp ins and warp prism bla bla bla, but which toss do this, lately more but it is camp...). But i want that it gets passionnant, not only when i play by myself, also as a Viewer on a Stream :). So do something, i know thats it is insane difficult but you are Blizzard you could make this!!

Step 3: Make me the new Balance guy, :D just kidding, i am out
good night
Well, TvP is a unbalanced matchup that requires much more effort on the Terrans side to win and zerg isn't far off it as well. To put it bluntly the very core mechanics of protoss seem off. With simple clicks of mouse for exmaple forcefield, storm, blink, as Destiny put it it feels 'dirty'.

That isn't going to change so a MSC or better a big phottonoverchage nerf would be nice to punish greedy play. As of now Protoss can fend off early aggression with literally 0 units since MSC is so op. Toss is dominant in late game so let's try to make it a little harder for them to get into the late game.
As for Oracles, it isn't too bad if you scout them, but if you do not get a 100% perfect scout they oracles will own you and gg. Not exactly fair either.

Also give us stats for the entire season 6 or was that completely ignored, I'm sure they would indicate an eve greater dominance of protoss over terran/zerg.


we should listen to this silver league advice ! :)

Nice to see a lot of people that needs to "l2p" rather than crying everyday.
Give them stats and clear explanation, resorts to "this is fake" " this nerf is not enough!" . That kind of attitude actually makes sense why don't they improve.

Sweet tears :))
This is a rather discouraging response. The issues are apparent; it should be a matter of how to address them appropriately, rather than debating if they exist at all.
01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups.


PvT difference in Masters league.

NA: 2.63
EU: 2.09
Korea: .04

I'm not seeing it especially when Korea leads.

01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest.


Wishful thinking there.

01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups.


So the match up has finally been figured out and the meta evolving.

01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup.


Good luck nerfing Protoss in PvT by .04 without screwing the matchup even more. Keep giving Terran Mech buffs until there is no longer a reason to only try and win with bio drops.
Hmmm, so proleague games in which Terran, Zerg and Protoss all had to almost exclusively prepare for Protoss resulted in more Protoss losing.

The format which is known for days even weeks of preparation is highly focused on players beating out the team.

Preparing for one match up is much more simple than preparing for three as evidenced by the few Protoss who did not play mirror match ups.

Is GM a sample size of 700+ players really too small?

Without specators Pro players are completely worthless and unemployed. If this game isn't fun as a spectator then why bother watching a tournament?

Ladder is a system geared at promoting 50% win rates across every match up in every league. The only thing preventing this is that players who consistently lose are unable to demote.

The only way to get good data out of ladder would be to league lock everyone for 2-3 weeks while distributing players by how often their race is played.

So if Terran is played 30% of the time then it should make up 30% in every league.

That would show the huge discrepancies between Protoss and Terran in PvT.

What I find hilarious is that despite the skewed ladder system promoting 50% win rates the clear advantage afforded to Protoss is not enough to convince the balance team that there is a problem.

Right now TvP sucks to play and sucks to watch.
01/09/2014 07:03 PMPosted by Aldrexus
The incorrect date in the win percentages link has been fixed. Thank you all for bringing it to our attention.


Thanks could you give the data for the previous season? It would also be nice to see race distribution for each league from this season and last.
01/09/2014 06:21 PMPosted by Dayvie
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.

Can anyone explain what this means plz?

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