Balance Patch, New Test Map, and Daedalus Fix

General Discussion
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Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!
02/03/2014 12:41 PMPosted by andrew
02/03/2014 12:36 PMPosted by BigFoot

I suppose you could look up the information I posted, but I don't see how it is any less valid. My league has very little to do with this.

Oracle allin in PvT is not a real issue. It is easily scouted and defended for the reasons I mentioned.

...

You're such a cute little silver.


that's my point exactly, your league has nothing to do with it, just like anybody elses league has nothing to do with it. i'm fairly certain that i've seen pro/semi-pro players suggest what you've shot down and pulled the league card on.

i've seen dumb suggests by masters players as well as bronze players. even GM players have had stupid ideas and opinions. didn't avilo say that combining mech/air upgrades wouldn't do anything to help?


I listed reasons for why early Oracles are not an issue in TvP. It is an easy win if you scout at all. There is just no refuting that. If you would like, you can try, but so far you're just being annoying.

Theory != Skill

A lot of people like to talk about how they would be masters if they could click faster because they have perfect game knowledge, but low apm. That's bull!@#$. You can get to masters with 60 apm and great game knowledge. So, until you get yourself out of silver and into diamond or masters your game knowledge is highly dubious and your posts are worthless.
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


i cannot agree more with you.

the league card is only detrimental.
02/03/2014 12:51 PMPosted by BigFoot


I listed reasons for why early Oracles are not an issue in TvP. It is an easy win if you scout at all. There is just no refuting that. If you would like, you can try, but so far you're just being annoying.

Theory != Skill

A lot of people like to talk about how they would be masters if they could click faster because they have perfect game knowledge, but low apm. That's bull!@#$. You can get to masters with 60 apm and great game knowledge. So, until you get yourself out of silver and into diamond or masters your game knowledge is highly dubious and your posts are worthless.


or i don't care about catching all the proverbial pokemon and i just play leisurely. doesn't mean you know more about the game than i do, and it doesn't mean i know more about the game than you do.

bad ideas are bad ideas, good ideas are good ideas.
If ghosts get energy then HT's should start with 70 energy
02/03/2014 12:51 PMPosted by andrew
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


i cannot agree more with you.

the league card is only detrimental.


Big ol circle jerk in here.

League is highly correlated with game knowledge.

If someone suggests turrets should be built without an ebay and a player of a much higher league explains in concrete terms why that's a stupid change, I am much more inclined to listen to the latter player. Especially when the former player cannot defend their suggestion.

02/03/2014 12:54 PMPosted by andrew
So, until you get yourself out of silver and into diamond or masters your game knowledge is highly dubious and your posts are worthless.


or i don't care about catching all the proverbial pokemon and i just play leisurely. doesn't mean you know more about the game than i do, and it doesn't mean i know more about the game than you do.

bad ideas are bad ideas, good ideas are good ideas.


If you play leisurely then why should anyone listen to your balance ideas? I play to become good. I DO know a lot more than you do about this game. I must be feeding a troll.
02/03/2014 12:28 PMPosted by Doncroft
I truly hope the Hydralisk does get buffed. It needs it.


No it really does not, its useful in certain time windows and combos. Used actively, no need for buffs. Its like saying guise pls buff carrier (which is actually 100x less used and useful than hydra).
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


I do think league card is valid at least to bronze/silver players.
bronze/silver matches don't really have the 'correct' metagaming.
02/03/2014 01:00 PMPosted by GuGuBuY
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


I do think league card is valid at least to bronze/silver players.
bronze/silver matches don't really have the 'correct' metagaming.


Up until at least top Plat, most players don't even have their basic macro down. IE supply blocks constantly, not building workers, etc. Players at or below diamond lose because they're bad, not because of imbalance.

Because of that, I find it very difficult to believe a lower league player can provide anything useful in balance discussion, so let's do away with the 'league card is silly' card. I invite all bronze, silver, gold and platinum leagues to kindly gtfo.
No comment on PvT as am a Z player.

Hydralisks could use an armor or health increase slightly to make them better overall but the risk you run is that roaches become an early game unit Only and once hydra's are accessible they are simply a better unit in most/all area's so the roach gets abandoned. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, that's your decision but perhaps if you buff hydra's you could look at specializing the two units more.

Let them overlap in the roles they can play less, because if Hydra's turn away from being glass cannons and turn into the bulk of an army then the Roach becomes pointless.

Another possible Hydra buff is to decrease scale sizing to allow more in a area to therefor increase DPS.

gl hf dev's
nice Patch
I appreciate the fact that the team is willing to throw in new changes into the test map. I think it will encourage a larger number of players to play around with the maps. I'm sure they will be thankful for the terrain changes on Deadelus.

02/03/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
To bring more Hydras into play in ZvZ as well as help Roach/Hydra to be more viable vs. Terran.


The cost reduction did support both of these paths. Certainly in ZvZ, the decreased gas cost opened up several new avenues for different openers. Ling/bane/hydra wars were incredibly fun and promoted a lot of skillful play.

ZvZ was one of the match-ups that was most impacted by the change. I am sad to see that opportunity go. I hope that whatever the new change is it will have improved both ZvT and ZvZ as much as the cost reduction did.

02/03/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
We’d like to try out a sight range nerf to the Mothership Core, as commonly requested by the community. We also believe this could be a really solid direction if the Time Warp and EMP changes aren’t enough.


I'm interested to see if this change will allow more positioning for Terran units to prepare for Blink attacks. I'm both optimistic and skeptical at the moment. Time will tell on this one.

02/03/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Dayvie
Late game PvZ in Europe is something we’d still like to look into testing/addressing. Looking at games in Korea, we’d still like to keep testing the Tempest change and not touch Swarm Hosts themselves if we can.


If you do end up looking into the swarm-host itself, here are three areas that could use some attention:

  • health of locusts
  • speed of locusts
  • attack range of locusts

With those appropriately modified, I think there would be fewer problems with the way hosts are currently used now.

However, it worries me that without the old hydra change, the new hydra will be unequipped to take on the late-game armies that the swarm-host currently manages. If tempests remove swarm-hosts from the game, in the same way they removed Broodlords, I think Zerg would be in a tough spot and I expect the match-up would devolving into a series of all-ins, rather than a full fleshed out game.

Would you be willing to look at other forms of cost reductions, such as a 50/50 or 25/75 hydralisk? Supply reduction? It just seems very antithetical to Zerg's identity to offer them powerful, expensive units that shouldn't die if the player wants to win the game.

Modifying other stats in conjunction with a price reduction would seem like the most reasonable approach.

I am excited to try out the new map. I was 20+ games into the old one - hope to put the same amount of time into testing the changes. Thanks for your effort in pumping out these changes and your patience when dealing with the community. We appreciate you guys - keep it up.
02/03/2014 01:00 PMPosted by GuGuBuY
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


I do think league card is valid at least to bronze/silver players.
bronze/silver matches don't really have the 'correct' metagaming.

Well I beat gold/plat players in unranked, so yeah a ladder ranking means nothing.

All that really matters is macro till at least diamond if not masters. I beat a plat terran today with 3 gates, and he could have easily held it if he had macrod properly.
02/03/2014 01:05 PMPosted by BigFoot
Players at or below diamond lose because they're bad, not because of imbalance.


Plenty of master league players who regularly display the most shockingly bad decision making too. You can never really draw a line when it comes to discounting people's opinions.

I think that while it is hard to demonstrably prove quite a lot of things in sc2, we can generally work out some specific things, such as the earliest time an optimised build can do 'x', and time and pro-level meta do tend to eventually give us a good sense for where the problems lie.

That said, time needs to be emphasised. For example, given enough time with no changes at all, blizzard are right to think it's possible that european swarm host use could end up looking like korean swarm host use. It might, it might not. But it might take quite a bit of time.

People are often quick to jump on the meta when it's barely out of the starting gates, but it can take quite a long time before a full picture emerges.
02/03/2014 11:10 AMPosted by Aurora
02/03/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
Great, you're nerfing the one good zerg map in the pool vs. protoss.

CAN YOU JUST MAKE ONE MAP THAT IS GOOD FOR ZERG?


The amount of stupidity in this post is unfathomable.


why ? every zerg is crying and whining nonstop and talking bs since 2010 ...
FINALLY a DAM patch where terran is not nerfed INTO the DIRT and into EXTINCTION

also THX U for FINALLY FIXING DAETALUS a DAM ape could flood speedlings and win on that map
02/03/2014 12:48 PMPosted by Doncroft
Btw, for those throwing around league cards, league indicates present performance in 1v1 ladder and NOTHING ELSE. There's correlation with game knowledge, but by no means equation.

For example, just because I'm currently Gold as Terran doesn't mean my ideas about Terran are invalid. The removal of Seeker Missile research originated from one of my threads almost two years ago, and I didn't even play Terran back then.

In short, drop da league card game, ya hicks!


Then you're the perfect candidate to convince them to drop the research requirement for Neural Parasite ;)
02/03/2014 11:01 AMPosted by Roboroadkill
Great, you're nerfing the one good zerg map in the pool vs. protoss.

CAN YOU JUST MAKE ONE MAP THAT IS GOOD FOR ZERG?


Seems that all your Zergs want is free wins.

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