Call to Action: January 31 Balance Testing

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 4 9 Next
I dont really get why blizzard buffs the ghost it just further buff to bio and templa openings might die if it goes through, it would be better to just reduce the price of armory like already suggested. I would also like if Blizzard would actually fix the real problem instead of adding a bandaid tempest fix.
Tempest buff is really, really strong - to be honest I feel like this wasn't thought through. If you want to go ahead with it, I suggest moving the buff to the carrier's intercepters. It would give the unit something unique and a reason to go carriers.

As for the ghost buff, being a terran, I like that change. There aren't really any one base ghost rushes that you can do, which isn't a bad thing, and has the potential to help mech in TvP.

Hydra buff is really, REALLY strong in PvZ and doesn't really do anything to address the skyterran concern that zerg players seem to be struggling against.

I feel that the timewarp change is a step in the right direction, but honestly, it's not enough. MSC definitely needs a sight radius nerf, or perhaps a cast range nerf. Maybe both? I would try out the sight range nerf first.

Photon overcharge change is quite literally pointless - it does virtually nothing at all in PvT. Didn't try it out in ZvP.
02/01/2014 02:03 AMPosted by Miro
Hydra buff is really, REALLY strong in PvZ and doesn't really do anything to address the skyterran concern that zerg players seem to be struggling against.

To be honest zerg has trouble against skytoss as well which makes me think it's zerg lacking in aa rather then anything wrong with terran or toss.
Just dont understand and almost frustrating just to read the proposed balance tests..

MSC needs to be toned down and those things proposed will not solve the real issue of blink allin/2base aggression being way to strong. One of the key things that need to be looked at should be the sight range like what alot of others across the globe are pointing out..

Why is the tempest being buffed while the real problem is left aside.. swarmhosts are the key issue here (along with zergs inability to tackle the Protoss late game deathball). The unit that creates the endless hour long TvZ and PvZ where both sides cannot make a move or a base trade scenario.

And if TvP mech is desired... the armory cost, lots of upgrades with mech units (and how redundant some of them are) along with some damage tweaks (even for their hard counters) should be looked at...

Hydralisk buff? Don't you guys realise just how much damage hydralisks do than their BW counterpart? Surely something else should be nerfed because hydra bane/ling all ins in TvZ for instance could be MUCH more deadly than roach bane ling all ins.

There are just so many ways of making the current meta more exciting yet Tempests now get their 4th special attack to bandaid a problem. I just dont understand why units such as the viper is not being looked at e.g. blinding cloud in TvZ and PvZ. What about oracle speed rollback along with the mutas? Something to address the TvP late game where Terrans have nothing to spend their gas in? what about feedback that usually gives protoss the upper hand vs energy based units (a reason why this was so hard to get in BW) and make people shy away from using many units?

Roach burrow movement and now tempest building damage.. where are all these ridiculous ideas coming from???
02/01/2014 02:15 AMPosted by KillerofGods
02/01/2014 02:03 AMPosted by Miro
Hydra buff is really, REALLY strong in PvZ and doesn't really do anything to address the skyterran concern that zerg players seem to be struggling against.

To be honest zerg has trouble against skytoss as well which makes me think it's zerg lacking in aa rather then anything wrong with terran or toss.

This can be fixed both ways i.e. nerfing the air unit's relationship with ground units. The problem occurs where because hydralisks are cheap now, zerg can form a MUCH more deadlier all ins (early/mid game) as they do insane dps to both air and ground.
Frankly I don't understand how buffing the ghost is going to help mech in any form.If I may quote from
I don't even like the removal of Moebius Reactor because it continues the trend of tech commitments being gutted to help solve other problems. No siege research, no Moebius, no evo chamber for spores, and now we hear talk about removing the ebay requirement for turrets to help with an oracle whose speed buff was never necessary and which there is no reason not to simply revert.

In Future blizzard shouldn't ask for feedback if they ignore 90% of it and push ahead with there own band-aid changes. Avilo posted about this in length on which is worth reading because his points are valid if you like him or not. He plays mech, and he plays it in GM vs protoss a lot of the time,so he knows what he's talking about.
The real problem is terran can out upgrade zerg with mech. Such bs. I wish zerg upgrades affected ground and air, and least carapace....
Blink whining is map based so no heed will be given to it and as for oracles, they will not be as strong next season when the map pool will be updated because if blink cannot be used on a map it will reduce the possibilities when scouting. Protoss has a variety of builds to choose from, so lets keep it that way.

The problem is that they have a imbalance of options currently. The opening in TvP is the Reaper Expand and you must prepare for Xgate allins, 2 base Collosi or Storm, Oracle+Xgate all ins, Voidray+xGate allins, Dts, Oracles,Blink...Should I continue? Now try to defend all this stuff going mech from the beginning...
that 10 seconds man is going to mean alot especially when the msc will have another overcharge ready by the time the next attack comes and the toss player will have more than enough time to have more units
Time to Mass Hydra
Where are the needed mech/Terran buffs. at least give use a tank with + shielddamage and cheaper transformation servos. We have seen bio for alot years now, time to make another way of playing viable too.
BW has this and SC2 still hasn't.
02/01/2014 03:55 AMPosted by ShoolNOTcool
cheaper transformation servos.

+1 for this I don't see any reason not to do this as I don't think it would break anything. Even if it does a balance test map/mod should find this out.
Blizzard is not listening. TL speaks. Also, swarm hosts really need a redesign blizzard please fix.

Poll: Impressions on MsC Photon Overcharge time decrease?

Approve (135)

Disapprove (41)

Neutral (9)

185 total votes
You have already voted in this poll.

Poll: Impressions on MsC Time Warp energy increase?

Approve (131)

Disapprove (38)

Neutral (6)

175 total votes
You have already voted in this poll.

Poll: Impressions on Tempest structure damage increase?

Disapprove (106)

Approve (72)

Neutral (16)

194 total votes
You have already voted in this poll.

Poll: Impressions on Ghost starting energy increase?

Approve (103)

Disapprove (67)

Neutral (20)

190 total votes
You have already voted in this poll.

Poll: Impressions on Hydralisk cost decrease?

Disapprove (140)

Approve (73)

Neutral (18)
Hydra buff will shut down mech play TvZ (fast mass hydra/roach/vipers due to extra gas).
Tempest buff makes one more cheese to TvP even stronger.
So silly.
Still, no nerf to blink and oracles. Reduce MSC vision and Oracle acceleration at least. TT
Ghosts buff and TW nerf are good though.
The hydra buff will just kill pvz and in zvz mutas wont be viable at all.The tempest buff is silly too...

I'm trying to play the map and every 10 seconds a newbie joins and I have to hit the quit button. The fact that it shows the 1st of the list of top played doesn't seem to help.

While I think it's great that customs are now free to play, for a balance test map we need games between more experienced players and their input.

I don't know if it's technically possible to block just 1 custom map from free users, but I think this would be necessary if the balance test map is going to provide any constructive feedback.

What's the point of having this map played by people who have 15 workers at 10 minutes?
Also, balance affects e-sports and ladder mainly and those users can't play ladder, so...
At least increase the Hydras mineral cost by 25...
01/31/2014 09:20 PMPosted by Snow
Not really. Even if hydralisks cost 0 gas, they would still have less HP and DPS than two stimmed marines, which would be of equal cost.
It does not change the fact that the 50% cost reduction makes hydras actually too powerful in ZvP since they already are slightly stronger in timing attacks with roaches. This alone should warrant a small decrease in damage output to compensate. However, let's wait and see this confirmed that hydras with 25 gas cost are not a good idea.

PS: I'll acquiesce if I am wrong.
I haven't had much of a chance to test the Hydra buff in ZvP, but I've played some in the other matchups.

Roach/Hydra is much more threatening in ZvZ now, that's for certain. It's very hard to handle it with double upgrade lings now, which my preferred strategy. With that said, if you stay on top of your Macro and go for a quick Hive, i think it's possible to deal with it.
However, nobody has really tried to use them in a full blown 2 base timing against me yet, so i can't comment on that.

They're !@#$%^- terrible still. With me as the Terran, i managed to drag out a TvZ i should have lost at 15 minutes for an entire hour because my opponent was committing to Hydras.
As it turns out, Hellions are really good against Hydras.

So far... ehhhh. I don't really like it. I like playing Ling based ZvZ, the Hydra buff feels like it's pigeonholing me into either opening Roach Hydra, or opening with Lings and transitioning to Swarm Hosts. It makes the matchup much less fun in my opinion.
avilo's thoughts ( terran gm streamer ) from TL:
That and cannot honestly believe that Protoss is being buffed again, lategame of all things...(tempests)...

I've said it many places, but the changes they currently have listed above for TvP, time warp and photon overcharge. As they are right now, they will not impact the match-up or balance it in any meaningful way.

The current imbalance of options the Protoss player has over the Terran player will remain in the game after those changes. The strength of photon overcharge will remain exactly the same, 10 seconds is nothing. Time warp costing 25 more energy does not matter if the game immediately ends from the blink all-in killing the Terran player...

Everyone knows this that watches and plays SC2 at even a decent level or especially high levels.

If they want to make meaningful changes that won't break balance, here is what they should do:

1. Revert Oracle Speed - making it so oracles do not 100% kill things every single game and can also have a chance to be killed by the Terran. Right now a good player will never lose their oracle ever because it was overbuffed. There's no risk to going oracle at all, especially with photon overcharge in the game.

2. Remove sight range from the mothership core or severely reduce it to the point that stalkers cannot shoot the Terran's supply depots on their ramp from the low ground without needing to move onto the ramp.

This will nerf the strength of blink all-ins which are too easy to execute and are low risk, high reward. It also indirectly opens up more Terran build diversity because Terran will now be able to hide information from the Protoss player meaning Protoss cannot play mega greedy as they do right now by knowing 100% information of the Terran's base.

This change 100% needs to happen for TvP to have any sort of decent balance.

3. Remove the engineering bay pre-req from turrets and sensor towers.

What does this do? It allows there to be reasonable counter play to finding a proxied stargate, or scouting a blink all-in. Sensor tower helps a lot against blink all-ins, and the ability to build a turret on the fly if you scout a proxied stargate changes the entire game from, "oh i autolose because i didn't blindly build an ebay and wasted 125 minerals" to "oh, i can build a turret and not just outright lose the game."

It also helps reduce the strength of blink all-ins because it saves Terran 125 minerals in the case that a blink all-in is scouted that could have gone towards another barracks or factory.

This is another change that will not break the game - it still allows Protoss those options they currently have, but it gives Terran a more reasonable defense against them.

4. DT shrine price put back to wings of liberty price.

It was nice that they wanted more diversity and options for Protoss...but they went overboard and made it so Protoss has waaaaaaaaaay too many options. DT shrine price needs to go to 200 gas at the least. The only people who argue against this are the people that enjoy freewins from proxying DT shrines and right clicking to the Terran's base.

That's not Starcraft - it's poker. No one enjoys watching something like this on a professional game that blatantly takes zero skill or thought and is very randomized, especially when in conjunction with the metagame of all the other Protoss all-ins.

5. Armory price reduced to 100/50 to allow mech players to upgrade their units at a more reasonable time versus Protoss and Zerg.

This does not impact unit balance in any way, it simply cuts a gas cost to Terran's that want to go mech so they can afford their factories and starports, tanks, blue flame, etc. at more reasonable times in the game.

This change makes 200% more sense than the ghost change blizzard proposes. The ghost change has zero impact on mech, although it would cut 100 minerals/100 vespene gas. The armory change I just mentioned does essentially the same thing - it cuts 100 minerals/100 vespene gas but actually is a meaningful mech change to help mech out...

Blizzard seriously...please listen to me on this. Everyone else should push forward a change like this because it makes infinitely more sense.

6. A +15 damage vs shields bonus applied to siege tanks, making siege tanks / mech a viable option vs Protoss.

This puts the tank back at 50 damage vs Protoss as it was in wings of liberty, and maybe then we'll see tanks not get run over in the most ridiculous fashions. The ghost change that blizzard proposes does absolutely nothing for mech viability because it doesn't change anything meaningful for mech vs Protoss.

The only thing the ghost change does is buff BIO and cut a 1 time 100 vespene gas cost. It does not help mech whatsoever.

Tanks back at +35 damage (+15 damage to shields) vs Protoss shieldsessentially reverts the previous tank damage nerf specifically vs Protoss, as 50 damage might be overkill versus Zerg.

Those are just my thoughts. Reading the blizzard proposed changes, I honestly do not know if it's them being out of touch with the game or that they are not willing or too timid to make changes to really balance TvP.

p.s. I bold faced my thoughts about the mobius reactor change/ghost change blizzard proposes to "buff mech" because it's quite obvious that change will do nothing to buff mech, whereas the change to armory price does exactly the same thing resource-wise but actually will influence mech 100% more than blizzard's poorly thought out change.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum