Testing New Balance Changes This Week

General Discussion
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Before we begin, I’d like to point out these changes are for a test map. There seems to be some confusion when we’ve tested changes in the past that all the changes we are testing are going to be patched into the game. This is simply not the case. Please keep this in mind as you consider and respond to the change-list.

Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9
We currently feel this would be a helpful change, but we’re worried that a vision radius decrease doesn’t really nerf the highest end Protoss players who are positioning the Mothership Core perfectly already. We’ll talk to professional Protoss players about this one once the test map goes live.

Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.

Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage
We’ve seen some games against Protoss where Widow Mines are used, and they are very exciting to watch, whether they’re just Widow Mine drops or Widow Mines in combination with the Terran army (while sniping Observers). We feel like both of these strategies could use a bit of help. The Widow Mine potential against Protoss basic units will be unchanged for direct hits, but we’d reduce the number of indirect hits required against units like Stalkers, Zealots, or Sentries. Also, when using Widow Mine drops against Protoss, the chance of splash damage one-shotting Probes will increase slightly.

Tempest ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30+30-to-structures
We still think this is a good change, and we want to see more testing with it. If Tempests gain more ability to wear down Zerg defenses, Zerg players will be less incentivized to play a completely defensive style. Surprisingly, we’ve gotten a lot of feedback that proxy Tempest rushes are too strong right now, and this change would make that strategy even stronger, but we’ve been watching all of the major tournament games, and we still don’t think it’s being used enough (or being used at all). If you can identify some games where the best of the best pro players have successfully used this strategy against a formidable opponent, please let us know. We’d like to check out such games and analyze them.

Hydralisk delay between attacks decreased from .83 to .75
This would increase Hydralisk damage output against all targets by about 10%. Our stance on Hydralisks needing a buff in TvZ and ZvZ hasn’t changed. Additionally, the trend toward Protoss being stronger than Zerg has continued. We need more time and results to draw conclusions on the most-recent balance patch, but we’d like to be prepared to help Zerg here if it’s necessary.

Again, none of these are final; we’re just testing these changes. We do this so that potential changes are tested and ready if another balance patch is needed. We do not aim to have every single change we test go into the live game. We'll be releasing a test map later this week, but until then, your feedback here is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.
Change hydra attack to non projectile as well so we can attack ravens!

Other than that love the changes being tested! Thank you DK!
widow mines sound very scary.
02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage


OMG, THIS IS BOSS!!!
Sounds pretty solid to me. The tempest change people will loathe but is inoffensive; the blink change is probably for the best as is the MSC vision change. The hydralisk buff is a subtle one but I think it addresses a lot of problems- potentially it could address turtle-mech, and a 10% DPS increase should definitely make hydras see more use. I am also really, really glad that Widow Mines are being buffed vs. Protoss. They almost were unicorns in TVP; you almost never saw them. Hopefully this changes that.

EDIT:

this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.


For people criticizing the actual changes they're making: this is why they're testing them. Being able to have the changes tested, and knowing their effects before making them allows them to scale the changes much better; it may turn out that 11 is the better number or 7 for the MSC vision change; it may turn out that the right hydra buff would be .8 rather than .75. It also allows them to understand the impact of the change before making it. This serves the purpose of showing them what might be better to buff.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Masters league here I come
What about the outer radius of the widow mine splash damage (between a radius of 1.25 and 1.75)? Does that get a vs. shield buff too? Or is it just >1.25 radius?
Well finally they listen prays the lord!
Good day David Kim!

Did you just watch soulkey playing today?
You know what im talking about ;p
What about addressing other actual Mech units? The Widow mine is too gimmicky and specialized of a unit. It isn't something that lasts long enough to pay for itself or even get any damage off in battles with 70+ army supply. They melt too fast.

Please address tanks or hellbats !!
Seriously Dayvie the Tempest change doesn't make any sense.

The problem is with the Swarm Host. You can see that just in how it's affecting both PvZ AND TvZ.

Buffing the Tempest doesn't solve anything.
02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9
We currently feel this would be a helpful change, but we’re worried that a vision radius decrease doesn’t really nerf the highest end Protoss players who are positioning the Mothership Core perfectly already. We’ll talk to professional Protoss players about this one once the test map goes live.

FINALLY. FINALLY. FINALLY.

02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.

This could help out considerably actually.

02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage
We’ve seen some games against Protoss where Widow Mines are used, and they are very exciting to watch, whether they’re just Widow Mine drops or Widow Mines in combination with the Terran army (while sniping Observers). We feel like both of these strategies could use a bit of help. The Widow Mine potential against Protoss basic units will be unchanged for direct hits, but we’d reduce the number of indirect hits required against units like Stalkers, Zealots, or Sentries. Also, when using Widow Mine drops against Protoss, the chance of splash damage one-shotting Probes will increase slightly.

Wow. All my yes.

02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Tempest ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30+30-to-structures
We still think this is a good change, and we want to see more testing with it. If Tempests gain more ability to wear down Zerg defenses, Zerg players will be less incentivized to play a completely defensive style. Surprisingly, we’ve gotten a lot of feedback that proxy Tempest rushes are too strong right now, and this change would make that strategy even stronger, but we’ve been watching all of the major tournament games, and we still don’t think it’s being used enough (or being used at all). If you can identify some games where the best of the best pro players have successfully used this strategy against a formidable opponent, please let us know. We’d like to check out such games and analyze them.

Doesnt change swarm host probelms.

02/10/2014 11:41 AMPosted by Dayvie
Hydralisk delay between attacks decreased from .83 to .75
This would increase Hydralisk damage output against all targets by about 10%. Our stance on Hydralisks needing a buff in TvZ and ZvZ hasn’t changed. Additionally, the trend toward Protoss being stronger than Zerg has continued. We need more time and results to draw conclusions on the most-recent balance patch, but we’d like to be prepared to help Zerg here if it’s necessary.

WOW.

Seriously gonna have to get really freaking good with my force fields then.

Also, no ghost?
yeah finally... plz dont wait to long to patch it to the game.. a

but there is one more problem.. photon overcharge way to powerful.. need nerf aswell..
Hydralisk change doesn't accomplish anything.

Need either of the following for them to be used more:

HP Change
Range Increase
Upgrade cost reduction


Especially for ZvT, if I'm against mech, why would I use a Hydralisk at 0.75 attack speed when swarm host is so close to that already? A locust is more cost effective. The change is too minor.
Yes, keep the Tempest's design so that its only role is to become a hard counter when it is needed. So now it can be the anti Broodlord and Anti SH unit.
What about nerfing, changing or (best) removing swarm host?
If the hydralisk to 25 gas change didn't prove the balance team had no grasp on basic concepts central to the game, this volley of changes, taken as a whole tends to suggest they've lost their minds.
i already hate using the widow mine since i think its a gimmick BARELY real unit

but at least u FINALLY realize blink is a dam issue

9 range still lets any1 with half a brain NEVER lose their msc core

i mean honestly u think something with 9 vision range is EVER gonna be sniped with 5 range units? not to mention u will AUTO lose if u move to edge for snipe toss can just pick everything off with stalkers even from low ground if needed

also instead of fixing swarm host turtle u try 2 just buff the tempest......wtf
I'm glad you've been listening to me about the past widowmine nerfs... WAS TOO EXCESSIVE!

This WM change is in the right direction....but you need to do more. WM were fine before. Let's work to get closer to that.
A solid nerf to Blink all-ins, while adding a solid buff the WM in TvP sounds good though I fear the blink nerf will be too drastic for a normal macro Protoss. The MsC vision nerf I think is fine though and would prefer to see that simply go through first and see if additional changes to the blink all-in need to take place.

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