2014 Ladder Season 2 - 1v1 Map Discussion

General Discussion
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03/26/2014 03:47 PMPosted by ToastieNL
A last piece of feedback;
could you consider also removing Alterzim in favor of Out Boxer (Proleague)? Alterzim seems to have a couple of really weird/boring stand offs (Phoenix vs Phoenix, Mech can hold 4 bases and turtle, Terran can't effectively push cross map, Turtletoss is very strong vs T/Z, etcetera). All this while Outboxer shows to be very promising.


We’ve heard this suggestion a few times since the Season 2 maps were announced. We enjoy watching games on Outboxer and don’t really have any issues with the map. To be honest, there really isn’t any grand or complicated explanation on why it wasn’t chosen. We reviewed a lot of maps and chose the ones we preferred for the Season 2 map pool based on our goals. At this point, it would be too late to bring in a completely different map into the pool, but we will definitely throw it into consideration for next season.
03/27/2014 04:18 PMPosted by Psione
03/26/2014 03:47 PMPosted by ToastieNL
A last piece of feedback;
could you consider also removing Alterzim in favor of Out Boxer (Proleague)? Alterzim seems to have a couple of really weird/boring stand offs (Phoenix vs Phoenix, Mech can hold 4 bases and turtle, Terran can't effectively push cross map, Turtletoss is very strong vs T/Z, etcetera). All this while Outboxer shows to be very promising.


We’ve heard this suggestion a few times since the Season 2 maps were announced. We enjoy watching games on Outboxer and don’t really have any issues with the map. To be honest, there really isn’t any grand or complicated explanation on why it wasn’t chosen. We reviewed a lot of maps and chose the ones we preferred for the Season 2 map pool based on our goals. At this point, it would be too late to bring in a completely different map into the pool, but we will definitely throw it into consideration for next season.


This is something I think Blizzard needs to change. The attitude of - It hasn't even started yet, but we already announced it, we can't change something even if it will make things better"
please dont add outboxer, i feel TvZ is imba on that map

Z cant attack the 4th bases at all because of the rocks and the way the ramp is placed.

Z cant hold the 4th bases because of siegetank placements, and T can setup a passive contain and deny the 4th bases.

greatest example is when Life vs Fantasy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzBVlxfAbjY
03/27/2014 04:49 PMPosted by Hunta
03/27/2014 04:18 PMPosted by Psione
...

We’ve heard this suggestion a few times since the Season 2 maps were announced. We enjoy watching games on Outboxer and don’t really have any issues with the map. To be honest, there really isn’t any grand or complicated explanation on why it wasn’t chosen. We reviewed a lot of maps and chose the ones we preferred for the Season 2 map pool based on our goals. At this point, it would be too late to bring in a completely different map into the pool, but we will definitely throw it into consideration for next season.


This is something I think Blizzard needs to change. The attitude of - It hasn't even started yet, but we already announced it, we can't change something even if it will make things better"

I agree wholeheartedly. I thought the whole point of introducing the maps early was to get community feedback before the season begins, so adjustments could be made if necessary. If changing things before the season even begins is "too late", what's the point of all this to begin with?

I'd have been fine with Blizzard saying they want Alterzim for reason X and/or Y. Granted, Blizzard's reasoning with maps has always been flimsy at best (and results in them developing the worst maps ever to grace the competitive scene), but this response is just a cop out. :(
03/27/2014 04:57 PMPosted by SauronZerg
please dont add outboxer, i feel TvZ is imba on that map

Z cant attack the 4th bases at all because of the rocks and the way the ramp is placed.

Z cant hold the 4th bases because of siegetank placements, and T can setup a passive contain and deny the 4th bases.

greatest example is when Life vs Fantasy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzBVlxfAbjY

Wow, real map exploits going on there. Glad it's not in the map pool.
[/quote]This is something I think Blizzard needs to change. The attitude of - It hasn't even started yet, but we already announced it, we can't change something even if it will make things better"[/quote]
+1
In many a sc2 game I go down wrong tech route cause of bad scouting or w/e it is, I can either loose the game or change, community feedback seems to be blizzard ignoring their scouting, from my experience that looses you games.

"I went pheonix, saw he had 2 spores per base and was teching hydra, so i made more pheonix, i'll switch when they all die/do something else next game" Pretty poor attitude indeed.
http://imgur.com/AcXhkUk
This is for Waystation and Merry Go Round LE.
03/26/2014 06:12 PMPosted by Psione
03/26/2014 02:12 PMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
Blizzard, may I ask why Alterzim Stronghold made it into the new map pool?


Over the past few months, we’ve listened to the feedback that was provided on the Season 1 map pool and gave careful consideration to what the Season 2 map pool would look like. We are aware that there were some community concerns over Alterzim Stronghold, but we felt the style of this map fits with our goals for Season 2. The positive and negative feedback we receive on this map both hit on the same point; the map plays differently to any other map in the pool. While working with our WCS partners (ESL and GSL) to finalize the Season 2 map pool, we took the following into consideration when deciding why we wanted to keep Alterzim Stronghold:

  • From a gameplay perspective, the balance on this map is in a solid state.
  • From a viewer perspective, we’ve been seeing some amazing games on this map. This includes one of the favorites from IEM Cologne in Jaedong vs Patience – Game 5, and a favorite from IEM Katowice in jjakji vs sOs – Game 2.
  • As mentioned, the map plays differently from many other maps in the pool. Looking at the maps we added and removed, we feel Alterzim Stronghold will still provide games that play out differently from the other maps in the ladder pool in Season 2.


We're okay with players preferring certain maps over others. That's actually why we have a veto system, so players have an increased chance to play on the maps they enjoy more. In fact, we also review the veto data when deciding which maps we want to keep for an upcoming season. Alterzim Stronghold actually fared quite well in this particular area last season.

We’re obviously trying to improve the map pool each season and we put a lot of thought into the map pool for the upcoming season. Sometimes we have difficult decisions to make and we definitely monitor how the community feels about those decisions and how they ultimately work out so that we can continue to make improvements in the future. Please continue to provide feedback and we will continue to discuss all the opinions we are seeing when making future decisions.


Fair enough, and I appreciate your response regarding the decision. Personally, I find it to be quite a boring map with not a lot of opportunity for early aggression in certain matchups. That being said, the new maps in the pool seem to compliment what Alterzim Stronghold lacks. I'm looking forward to the feedback of the community, and I think Blizzard is taking a big step by being receptive of the community with the map pool. Thank you for your response.
03/27/2014 05:11 PMPosted by IreBrood
03/27/2014 04:57 PMPosted by SauronZerg
please dont add outboxer, i feel TvZ is imba on that map

Z cant attack the 4th bases at all because of the rocks and the way the ramp is placed.

Z cant hold the 4th bases because of siegetank placements, and T can setup a passive contain and deny the 4th bases.

greatest example is when Life vs Fantasy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzBVlxfAbjY

Wow, real map exploits going on there. Glad it's not in the map pool.

Really guys? You never heard of strategic positioning before? Life went for the counter attacks instead of preventing Fantasy from establishing a good offensive position. That tactic can work, but not if you're trading equal bases against a superior army composition.

It was a very close and very entertaining game. Probably about as good of StarCraft as you can get in SC2.
I have made a personal critique for Waystation Close spawns first though.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/12311030982

More on all maps on the way first.

Maybe blizzard can check the critique too just to look at the benefits and drawbacks (in my point of view)
Hello bliz. I think on the new map pool need make place for Out Boxer pretty balanced map. Good 2 spawn position map. :D After Yeonsu need a good one.
03/26/2014 07:46 PMPosted by Hunta
Lol no


I liked it though...
All I want is a couple logical maps that don't have narrow attack paths and limited vision areas all across the map. A map where all races have equal access to do different things would be better logic. I suppose its nice just to see new maps.. So I have to agree with adding 4 new 1v1s. Not sure if I agree on the layout since they look pretty much the same or too empowering of air units(protoss). After the hydra buff it would also be logical to follow that up with an open area map that would empower them.

03/26/2014 06:12 PMPosted by Psione
Please continue to provide feedback and we will continue to discuss all the opinions we are seeing when making future decisions


Your welcome!! :)
Waystation:
Protoss needs 3 3x3 buildings to make a natural wall, also if you spawn at the bottom right/ top left you need to wall towards your natural nexus and ramp or you will need 4 3x3 buildings to wall with a 1 sized pathway to block with a unit. Zerg has no places to park their overlords, at all, there are no 1x1 high ground pods nor any unpathable high ground pods with doodads on them to have the overlords sit at to just have mid map vision, the map is almost completely flat, so there are no places to have the overlords sitting at "hidden" from units so zergs has to spread creep constantly and have more active lings running around the map in comparison to current maps where you can have overlords sort of hidden. I will need to check the map for terran, but it seems the map is extremely open, looks like bio will have a lot of fun splitting on this map and flanking but it will be easy for zerg to abuse mass lings to surround armies. Protoss will have really hard time holding early aggression due to the design of the natural and because that natural entrance is so big zerg cheese vs protoss will probably really popular, also due to the need to wall to the nexus, protoss will probably have to veto this map. Zergs will also veto the map due to lack of overlord positions and lack of vision. Terrans will be stuck in mostly mirror match-ups on this map, I will need to check the map with terran soon and then I will give more feedback about it.
What needs to be done: Remake the top left/ bottom right naturals to make sure protoss can wall that off in a better way, have rocks or something to make it more comfortable. Add 1x1/2x2 pods or unpathable high ground pods around the naturals/3rds and around the map to make it possible for zerg to play on the map.
Waystation looks beautiful and reminds me of the old days maps

Overgrowth I think will give some super exciting games, looks good
I am glad to see that the new maps are less reaper-opening friendly. Heavy rain is a nightmare against double proxy rax reaper.
03/28/2014 09:31 AMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
I am glad to see that the new maps are less reaper-opening friendly. Heavy rain is a nightmare against double proxy rax reaper.


Amen, 3 reaper openings have been giving me such headaches...
03/28/2014 09:49 AMPosted by Comadiroma
03/28/2014 09:31 AMPosted by IIIIIIIIIIII
I am glad to see that the new maps are less reaper-opening friendly. Heavy rain is a nightmare against double proxy rax reaper.


Amen, 3 reaper openings have been giving me such headaches...


Other than that I really like heavy rain. Its just that the main is way to reaper-friendly.
Blizzard PLZ READ THIS
MERRY GO ROUND ISSUE

I tried to hit my overlord at the empty space between each starting base and natural expansion with my hydra without upgrade, and at TOP RIGHT I couldnt hit my overlord, while at other bases I could.
Hydralisk and marine has same range, so in TvZ this can be a problem.
Plz fix this so I can hit overlord with marine at all 3, or I cant hit at all 3 bases.
03/27/2014 05:06 PMPosted by Caustic
...

This is something I think Blizzard needs to change. The attitude of - It hasn't even started yet, but we already announced it, we can't change something even if it will make things better"

I agree wholeheartedly. I thought the whole point of introducing the maps early was to get community feedback before the season begins, so adjustments could be made if necessary. If changing things before the season even begins is "too late", what's the point of all this to begin with?

I'd have been fine with Blizzard saying they want Alterzim for reason X and/or Y. Granted, Blizzard's reasoning with maps has always been flimsy at best (and results in them developing the worst maps ever to grace the competitive scene), but this response is just a cop out. :(

As I mentioned, we are happy with the maps chosen for the current map pool, so we would prefer to focus on feedback on the existing maps rather than explore the possibility of adding maps that weren’t chosen. We can, however, look at the map pool for Season 3 and see if we feel it would be a good fit.

Beyond that, some people seem to be focusing on the comment about it being too late to add a new map to the map pool. I know that some may not be familiar with the process of getting a map ready for the ladder, but there is a good amount of work that goes into preparing a ladder map for release. This includes putting a map through the QA process. I thought I’d offer a bit of transparency and would take a moment to explain this in more detail.

The QA process begins with locating bugs. Doing a thorough pass at this stage can take some time. Once bugs are fixed, there is often a need for additional passes to ensure that the changes did not affect any other portion of the map. If the map already has art at this point, any fixes that affect the art (removing a doodad that was blocking pathing, for instance) will often need an artist to go back and touch up the area. Ensuring that the art on the map does not confuse the gameplay is also important. For example, if a section of art makes it confusing on where you can and can’t path, it would be something we would want to adjust to make it more clear.

Beyond removing the bugs on the map and ensuring the art is in a good place, we look to ensure the map is performing well on various hardware. If we find any issues with the performance, we then look to make appropriate changes to the map to get it running well. Often the cause can be an excessive amount of doodads or effects on the map, so attempting to keep the art as close to the original vision while also improving the performance is a delicate balance. It can take several passes to get this worked out if there are performance issues.

While all this is going on we are also having the map text localized by our global teams. The map name and description will need to appear correctly in different languages as we will be publishing it globally.

That is just a really high level description of what occurs, but the full process can often take weeks to complete and requires work from various departments here at Blizzard. Due to this, the new maps are selected well in advance of the upcoming season to allow for this preparation. When we change a new map based on feedback, it is often a section or feature of the map and not an entire rework. This allows the turnaround time to be much shorter. Adding an entirely new map from scratch, as you can see, is a much longer process.

Hopefully this explanation provides some insight into what goes on behind the scenes.

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