what's the timing on a DT rush?

Protoss Discussion
Just seeing if I can use this to curb PvP.

I figure if I 2 gate and harass with zealots to slow him down; or with 3 stalker (i prefer the 3 stalker honestly)

But go as fast into DT so when he does come to attack me I can just crush him and then counter and win.

Well that's the theory

What's the BO for Dt also?
I guess you theoretically could do this. But you'd have to have high apm because your harass better be good b/c your DTs are coming out later.

A solid DT rush gets to someone's base right before/at the 7 min mark from a proxy pylon. You can get DT's earlier than this, but you will literally have 0 units besides probes and you will 100% die to a 4 gate. You have to build at least 1 stalker and hope to god they don't know how to actually do a proper 4 gate because it will roll you just before you can pop DTs out.

This is more of a terran strat anyways. You use it to expand off of 3 gates while you keep him contained. Most terran do not go early raven and they are reluctant to waste scans. In PvP, everyone goes robo as quickly as possible anyways (if they don't 4 gate or 2 gate zealot rush that is) so even if you do rush them it's going to be very, very close to when that obs pops out.
Play a 1v1 game against easy AI and see how fast you can get them.

Make your own build, just drop down the structures needed as fast as possible without giving away what you're doing.

Fast DTs
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1568197748

If he 4 gates you're dead since it'll hit you 1 min before you have the DTs out. Wait too long and he'll have a robo if u have zero pressure applied
DTs are really not a good strat in PvP. The timings just work very poorly.

Well, first, you have to get the early second gas which is very problematic in PvP as the second gas is pretty much a sign of un-optimized 4-gate / tech. You need to disguise the build early as a 4-gate and deny scouting after your first Stalker is out. Problem is, that really limits your second gas timing and delays DTs a lot.

If you show the second gas, you will either get 4-gated and die, or they will match your gas and tech. In the match-up, 90% of the time, tech means robo and that means they'll have the observer.

So... you basically are relying on luck and hoping that they don't 4-gate you, they only produce 1 obs and promptly scout with it, or that they tech something besides robo (a rarity in PvP).

I guess if you really wanted to do a fast DT build in PvP, it would have to be from the three-stalker opening to delay potential 4-gates. The three-stalker opening gets earlier gases (though you have to spend that gas) and executed well, can delay a 4-gate until around the 6-minute mark or later if they don't react well. Problem is, on top of adding 200 gas to the build's tech (TC and robo cost the same amount of gas), you still need to make the stalkers and also a sentry or 2 to hold the ramp. Without really working with the build and a tester, I don't know if you have enough gas to get the DTs out with reasonable timing to defend a 4-gate delayed by 3-stalkers -- I'm thinking you won't.
yeah I was thinking of going 3 stalker usually if you can push them back with 3 stalkers and they believe you are 4 gating from that; they will get ready to defend.

If I can hold them in there; with just those 3 stalkers (using any excess minerals for lots) and get the dt's in by 7 minutes this may work. But I realize now that pvp is usually early robo, but don't most protoss usually get immortal out first? and get sentries/stalkers to where they have low gas?

If he had low gas, and i hit while he was making something else (or even before the observer is out) that should give me a full minute tops to do damage with dt?

I mean even 20 seconds with a dt can kill some probes, or reduce his mining time while forcing unwanted cannon or observer instead of extra immortal. Or snipe... zealots? haha probably not worth the dt's time.

In the end you would only be getting 1 dt I guess; after that it's all about the fear that I have dt's and you need at least 2 observers or cannons to leave your base and keep your army protected at the same time.
You've got the right theory and you can actually make it pretty far doing this since people around our level do not apply proper 4gate technique.

The problem is that a higher rated Protoss who thinks you're 4gating will usually prepare a 4gate defense. If you don't attack at around 5:30 he'll have a Sentry and a Robo building which will Chrono out an Observer first thing because he's saving his resources to build a Robo Bay and Colossus.

You'll lose almost 100% of the time trying to fake into DTs against the good players but it's not a bad thing to rank up on if you can get it to work, I don't think. Better than just mindlessly 4gating at least. Once you're forced into 4gating every match you'll be able to pick it up pretty quickly.
yeah I was thinking of going 3 stalker usually if you can push them back with 3 stalkers and they believe you are 4 gating from that; they will get ready to defend.

If I can hold them in there; with just those 3 stalkers (using any excess minerals for lots) and get the dt's in by 7 minutes this may work. But I realize now that pvp is usually early robo, but don't most protoss usually get immortal out first? and get sentries/stalkers to where they have low gas?

If he had low gas, and i hit while he was making something else (or even before the observer is out) that should give me a full minute tops to do damage with dt?

I mean even 20 seconds with a dt can kill some probes, or reduce his mining time while forcing unwanted cannon or observer instead of extra immortal. Or snipe... zealots? haha probably not worth the dt's time.

In the end you would only be getting 1 dt I guess; after that it's all about the fear that I have dt's and you need at least 2 observers or cannons to leave your base and keep your army protected at the same time.



3 stalker open means NO 4 gate but is rather the anti-4gate build going to robo. It's a defensive build, but lesser experienced players may not know that. Going 3 stalker open will delay DTs quite a bit as it'll push the TC & DS back which means you wont have them out by the 7 min mark. More like 8:30 or later
My best time yet on a DT rush is a hair over 6 minutes, which is actually faster than my average 4gate, which hits around 7.

But then I rarely average over 60 APM so there's probably a correlation there. Also, if you want to maximize the initial crippling wrought by DT's, send one to each of the pylons powering his warpgates and the one powering his robo (if he went fast robo), and put them on hold position until they can all start attacking at the same time. The simultaneous loss of his reinforcing capability and ability to throw out detection will enable you to move all but one DT to his mineral line and take everything out, while the last DT removes the unpowered robo facility just to be safe.
DTs should come after a harass that looks like a legit push.

Basically you do like a fake 4 Gate, where you actually had 2 or 3 gates and your second gas going or stuff like that. You kinda poke around pretending you can't get in, but you're actually building your TC/shrine during that time while screwing around at their entrance.

Basically you just have to play smart and keep the "fight" mid field or at their base. Theres no point doing one of those strait full-speed DT rushes, unless your opponent is really really dumb.

You should also try and at least scout their build before you're committed on a DT rush, some people actually go robo with obs first, and some people actually put up a cannon if you don't do anything aggressive in the first 6 minutes.
A bit over 7 minutes if you're not being ridiculously greedy and avoiding all reasonable defense.

I have my own balanced DT rush formula for team games that gives me some legitimate defense and a proxy DT rush in the 7:40 mark, which strikes me as the perfect balance. If I get rushed before then, I can stall until the DTs trash the rush. Not foolproof, but more balanced than a purely extreme DT rush that could turn south, IMO.


My team strat with Protoss is to cannon rush, into dt rush. I feel like i save a lot of gas with just making cannons :)

Anyhow, Yeah I mean if I notice a robo I will realize not to go dt's then. Also I'm always an agressive player, if I'm not aggressive then I get paranoid just macroing in the dark. I try to have map control with over saturated probes. Take over towers and everything.
DT rushing has been coming off pretty good for me when I need a counter to 4 Gate Pushes.
If it ends into a base race, your more likely to win as well (if you built in the right spots)

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=193772&st=0#post8184589
I only DT Rush and can land by 5:49 in multi-player games. I rely on my partner to defend the choke points until my DTs pops out at the opponent's base

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