Civilization Sapphire

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Also a suggestion from a long time player:
first, i like the old prices for farms/mines. Second, mass knight is retardedly OP. Biplane needs a nerf. Early All units should move slightly faster. And this one's the biggest one:
WE NEED A BIGGER MAP PLEEEASE.

Not only will bigger maps provide for less cramped games, it will also provide people who are behind to catch up without dealing with other players. Larger maps will reduce the power of t1 and t2 allins. The main problem with the game now is that whoever gets the most land early on wins, because the resourcecs are so limited and close together. Eventually, it becomes impossible to break one's map presence, because their econemy is ahead when you have nowhere to go to catch up than to try your luck against someone with tons of entrenchments.

EDIT: and i LOVE the idea of a scouting unit suggested a few pages ago


I'd like to interact a bit on these suggestions:

Mass knight is good because Kenoli has (appropriately) set the newest tech unit to generally be better than the last tech unit across ranged/melee lines. In other words, knight is better than both archer and hoplite. Further, the dynamic of the game (low HP/high damage ranged units and high hp/high damage melee units) means that enough numbers on a good melee unit give it "critical mass" to be able to close the range gap (that space between melee and ranged units that makes ranged units naturally better) and kill ranged balls very well. The fact that knights can do this is, to some extent, what we want to keep melee units in the game at all. Given that, if you see somebody else get to knights a while before you and you need to do something, try mixing a lot of barbarians in with your ball. Barbarians have one of the highest hp-per-mineral values in the whole map and retain that for a while, so they can slow down knights. Of course, it's a balance issue; I don't think knights are that bad.

Having relatively slow units early helps make the micro-intense early expansion more accessible. Of course, it's a balance; few people I've heard complain, though.

I don't agree that we need a bigger map, but the underlying problem here seems right to me.
To clarify, we rarely ever fight over a single geyser. We fight over "areas" or "zones" or what have you that each control about 4-5 geysers (think each starting area, green in-between zones, and desert in-between zones). Generally to stay in the game you need to get about as many "zones" as the leading player. That can be extremely difficult, especially if you get sandwiched (a quite unfortunate outcome when you're playing with, say, 4 people and you just happen to be the sandwiched guy between two competent defense players) or if the leading player got an easykill and you're looking at starting areas or competent defense players. That creates incentives to just invest more in your technical play and try to get an easykill to get ahead; it leaves a bad taste in the mouths of new players who get easykilled; finally, as you say, it ends up giving people who don't get easykills or don't have expo avenues no reason to keep playing.

The changes over the last couple months have really helped this problem I think. The big mess of knights and stuff in the desert zones makes it much more difficult to run through there in five minutes and easykill another player. Nowadays you generally won't see another player until you've had plenty of time to get bunkers, rines, and even walls in your chosen spots. That's great. New players can still get easykilled, but that's got a lot more to do with the learning curve than what meta incentives Kenoli makes.

Current meta seems to be that competent players will expo until they see each other, try their hand at a kill or bunker up (much more likely), and then try to win the tech race to immos ("catapults"?). The only thing I might say here is that catapults sure do kill bunkers fast; on the other hand, they are expensive and vulnerable. I'd say as the meta improves Kenoli should keep that on the radar.

How does this relate to my earlier rant about the FFA players that just play for technical skills? It makes it tougher for them. That's fine.

Another idea I recently had would be to try to put some pithy map concepts in a pop-up tutorial when the game starts. For example, the moment the map starts, it shows the following in a very forceful, up-front way:

-Spend minerals on units and gas on buildings. Get more gas by building refineries; get more minerals by building farms.
-Amass tech points to gain access to new units and technologies. Technology buildings (protoss) and command centers produce tech points.
-Be safe! Make bunkers in good spots early. Watch out for catapults.

Then, use the tools that control player stats (bank files? not sure) to store how many times somebody has played. That way you can forcefully push important tutorial points on new players while exempting veterans.
People dont play this game more because the regulars dominate the first 4-5 levels of the game and are usually dead with 10-20 minutes. Also games dont begin because people want to wait for a certain amount. Whether that is 6 players or 8. It isn't that fun with 4 players because there will be that one player who will dominate super early, more players slows that down.

Also a factor in people not playing is the B.net system itself. But also from my point of view when I make a civ game, I keep seeing the same people join and you get use to their strategies.
I think the anti-allying FFA players contribute to the problem of regulars killing/dying quickly. If people routinely allied at least one other player - even a bad one - I would foresee games going longer and giving new players more room to learn.

Tots agree that Civ Sapphire is another casualty of the WoL B.net system.
After playing more games today I'm even more convinced the toolbag playerbase is killing civ sapphire. Moving FFA vote to lobby cements their position even more.
Does anyone have a good strategy that i could use because I suck at the game
I see euknemarchon's points, but if you wanna *win* the game, for sure you gotta take the time to master it. What he's asking is basically a way for weakling noobs to ally against a pro. The issue isn't some kind of easykill, it's that he's a noob and easydies.

I just had an 1h match with 5 ppl with no ally, that's enough time alrdy.

The cool thing is like a match I had a few days ago, when 3 noobs preteamed on a 6 man. Luckly they were all in far spots, and I could kill 2 of them with the others watching in silence.

If you read some of my points years ago, you'll see that expanding isn't that worthy. You lose units while killing NPC, while a turtle can just rely on def while spending his little income in teching. To expand you need more money, that forces you to expand more, and you still need to match turtles techs.
Are you going to come back to Starcraft one day?
I think Civ Sapphire is a great map, but it needs to be developed to get more popularity.
Not sure if anyone still reads this thread. Kenoli, I've been playing this game for a while (I've played you a few times) and I really don't like the option of choosing the game type at the beginning. We have few enough games as it is and this will only serve to split us up more. Please go back to voting in lobby.
Thanks.
05/09/2013 02:08 PMPosted by Hikari
I see euknemarchon's points, but if you wanna *win* the game, for sure you gotta take the time to master it. What he's asking is basically a way for weakling noobs to ally against a pro. The issue isn't some kind of easykill, it's that he's a noob and easydies.

I just had an 1h match with 5 ppl with no ally, that's enough time alrdy.

The cool thing is like a match I had a few days ago, when 3 noobs preteamed on a 6 man. Luckly they were all in far spots, and I could kill 2 of them with the others watching in silence.

If you read some of my points years ago, you'll see that expanding isn't that worthy. You lose units while killing NPC, while a turtle can just rely on def while spending his little income in teching. To expand you need more money, that forces you to expand more, and you still need to match turtles techs.


Actually, at the time I wrote it (things may have changed), expansion was actually free using the lure technique. Pros would use the lure technique, lose few or no units, and then when they came on a player it was very easy to overpower them and basically double in size. While the wall option on your ramp could help with this, you're still talking about losing an entire zone very early in the game.

And it's not about good vs. bad. It doesn't take being super good and super weak to have the early game easykill (just my word for early barbarian kills). There were no starting static defenses for player bases. So all it took was 3 more barbs than the other guy and he's dead and you get to double in size fast. That was the point. That's also how some of those reputedly good players would beat so many other players--they just double in size once or twice because there were no starting static defenses.

So the point all along was that the map creates incentives for players to focus on technical skills--and by this I mean the skills involved in free expansion by luring, losing no barbs, and being the guy who comes out ahead by three barbs--which both deters new players who face these early game killers and makes the game focus less on other things in the first 5-10 minutes.
I played again this last weekend for the first time in a year. I like having the host choose the game type when creating the game. Open alliances is a much better setting for attracting newer players, and this makes sure I can always set that up :P. Further, today's in-the-know/leetish players like Faraday seem more welcoming to new players than they did a year or so ago. So +1 to him.

Although I had hopes for the meta developing against it, I think the game mechanics make it too easy to run over other players in the early game. The couple games I played with Faraday I lost--probably about 60% because he had some mechanics down better than me after a year of me not playing (which I would hope would be the case, lol) and 40% because he got much better ganks than I did. In the games I didn't play with Faraday, I won in every game because I ganked somebody early game, had an unstoppable gas/mineral lead, and just balled everybody else to death. (That's all except one game where I happened to find the exact two starting locations with no gas and where I did have to use some diplomatic shenanigans that were somewhat more meta, but I digress.) People were legitimately attacking me for making the game unfun. It's one thing when people lose because they're new; it's another thing when the new player experience of losing is just fundamentally off-putting. The solution of putting more units in the middle areas is a balance that's impossible to get right with a map this small--either the NPC balls get too powerful and people are sitting there early game, or they're too weak and people kill others too fast.

Point is, the experience of the map is just not something that's going to build a bigger following. But I'm not sure if after so many years there's much worth to fundamentally changing the experience on everybody to fix it. So I suggest somebody fork this thing and work on something in the Civ Sapphire tradition that can solve these problems--more static D early game, better unit dynamics in general, still lots of fun micro-based expansion early game, still the interesting macro mechanics, maybe new terrain (perhaps even randomized?). Civ Sapphire is a fine entry into the long lineage of diplo-like maps, but I think something new that builds on its contributions might reinvigorate the scene Blizzard has so fundamentally injured.
Me and my family are willing to take over development.
We just need the source map.
what does the ethreal entity do?
I got the stupid ruby pendent and I have the hybrid, and I found a bronze key, I have no idea of what to open it with though.

Just a hint of what to do with the key please, ill love you forever.

Update: nvm, got sapphire shard, and I gave ruby pendent to ya know. but i killed that Thing in what I thought was the right spot, and I cant get another of that Thing. so toss me a bone here, I beg of you.
I have never played a game where everyone doesn't rush everyone else. If I wanted to waste 10 minutes on a piece of !@#$ I wouldn't do it at my desk.

I wonder if this game was ever good?
With the ring you get form the boss you place it on the citadel and find the other rings. 1 of the rings is in a barbarian camp and i cant remeber where the third ring is but i know its there. Afterwards you got to do alot of stuff till you unlock a secret that launches a wave on the entire map that kills everything
06/15/2011 04:28 PMPosted by Kenoli
Published on US and EU.

Civilization Sapphire is based on a SC1 map by the same name.

Each of up to eight players begin the game with a small prehistoric town, which they can expand and develop into a massive and technologically sophisticated empire. After the barbarous computer controlled units have been defeated, the players will have to face each other.

Screenshot: http://i56.tinypic.com/jqj7dl.jpg


Hello. I'm a Korean starcraft player who loves Civilization Sapphire. I enjoyed playing this map when I played in NA server, yet it is not too popular in Korean server. I want to share this awesome map with Koreans users, but many Koran users are not familiar with English. Thus, I'd like to change the language to Korean. If there is any language file that I can translate into Korean, I'm able to do that. I'm not an expert in making starcraft custom map ( I've never tried before ), so I'm afraid if I would be able to do all process by myself. If it's possible, I just want to translate the message and hand that translation to you so that you can apply them to the map. E-mail me to junpark8903@gmail.com if you are interested in it. Thank you.
Years later and I still love this map. A wiki file with all the hidden easter eggs would be nice. I can barely get a game going of this anymore though :(
best way to survive in this game is to ally someone or feed daddy! :D

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