Is two base 6-gate blink too strong vs zerg?

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The general premise is this one:

Historically Blizzard has "adjusted" strategies or builds in which the effort required to stop them is not proportional to the effort required in executing them. Examples of this could be: pre-nerf reapers vs zerg; pre-nerf 4 gate; pre-buff spore root time vs 2-port banshee; original 2-rax vs zerg; original infestor (fungal + np range) vs armored builds; terran 1-1-1 vs protoss; amulet nerf vs terran drops; mass muta vs protoss (phoenix buff).

Much better players than me believe that, for example, missing a couple of injects vs this build is pretty much the difference between winning and losing. That's really unforgiving.

This is build is very very popular now vs zerg and I have seen it used a lot against me and I have seen it being used a lot at the professional level. I believe that while, yes, this protoss build requires good blink micro to use; I feel that it out-produces zerg reinforcements in a non-efficient level for the zerg while at the same time it out-upgrades zerg by a long shot.

Blink keeps stalkers alive, though weak. The key here is that most stalkers don't die. Protoss simply pulls back their stalkers to the proxy pylon and charges back again with fresh stalkers while keeping the injured stalkers regenerating shields in the back. All this while out upgrading zerg.

Typically ends up with +2 weapons for protoss vs 0-0 for zerg. Maybe +1 range dmg - 0 armor for zerg.

Personally I hate going mass muta versus protoss and I am glad Blizzard is taking a look at it, even if most protoss don't agree with the phoenix range buff. I enjoy roach/ling/hydra vs this push but for the life of me I find it EXTREMELY difficult to hold in comparison to the effort required to pull it off.

I wonder if it fits with the aformentioned builds and merits Blizzard to take a look at it. It is only logical then, why most zergs choose mutas vs toss.

Blizzard already increased blink research time by 30 sec to give zerg more time to prepare. What more do you want?
The key to it is taking a quick 3rd, getting some big waves of drones in and having a roach warren down and training roaches/slings around the 9 minute mark,depending on your scout. The only way to really die to this is if you make too many drones, or you misread your opponent.
If you drone heavily off 3 base, then just make pure units, while spreading some creep, it's quite easy to hold with speedroach/speedling.
03/06/2012 01:04 PMPosted by Silence
The only way to really die to this is if you make too many drones, or you misread your opponent.


QFT!

Don't play too greedy, and make sure to scout well.
The only way to really die to this is if you make too many drones, or you misread your opponent.

Or you didn't take a third, didn't make enough Drones, and made Roaches/Lings too early.
I appreciate the tips. Some things I should have said in the original post. First. I am not dying because over droning, I stop when I scout it, usually somewhere in the 45-55 drone range. I do take a quick third. I do scout it.

I am not saying it is unbeatable. Please re-read. I am saying it is quite hard to stop in comparison to the effort involved in executing it.

The closest thing I can compare it to, is the original 4-gate: Lose a queen = gg. Engage it too early = gg. Lose an overlord = gg. Get supply capped during the push = gg. Don't scout it = gg (though this is not my problem). Overdrone = gg.

Same exact things that applied to the original version of the 4-gate. Beatable but very demanding to do so.
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Question to the better players.

Do you need both roach speed and ling speed to beat this push? Usually I am gas starved in the process of defending it, which forces lings, which are substandard to roaches and hydras.

Not to mention that if I miss an inject or two, or get my queen sniped, protoss WILL out produce me.
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Elite - good point on the blink nerf time. I forgot about it. But add the upgrade buff which murders lings...
03/06/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Calcaz
Elite - good point on the blink nerf time. I forgot about it. But add the upgrade buff which murders lings...


How, exactly?
03/06/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Fawxkitteh
The only way to really die to this is if you make too many drones, or you misread your opponent.

Or you didn't take a third, didn't make enough Drones, and made Roaches/Lings too early.


Combined these are both correct. If you stayed on two base with not a lot of drones and put on no early pressure, you are going to lose as toss out-reinforces you. If you took a third very greedily and overdroned a lot, you are going to lose because you'll have no units. However, if you took a decent third and stopped droning at a reasonable point, you will win every time. You'll have enough units to hold initially and enough economy/production to out-reinforce toss. It's a huge all-in by toss, you can't transition out of a two base blink all-in against a three basing zerg; you have no useful tech other than +1/2 and are very behind economically. It's a powerful build, sure, but it is easily stopped by the right play.
What timing is the build hitting at exactly?

But ussually, if he skips robo you can just murder him by using burrow micro to beat his blink micro. And if he does slow down his push enough to get a robo you generally have time to get out infestors.
Upgrade buff? A sprinkle of zealots, which usually comes with this push, 2 shots lings. While upgraded blink stalkers vs non-upgraded lings fair quite well against them.

What timing is the build hitting at exactly?

But ussually, if he skips robo you can just murder him by using burrow micro to beat his blink micro. And if he does slow down his push enough to get a robo you generally have time to get out infestors.


Exact time? Not exact but I estimate maybe 10-12 mins. Though no robo tech. Just pure blink + zealots. Maybe a 3 or 4 sentries.

Yes, I have seen it beat with burrow micro. Again, quite very tough indeed.

Is there enough gas for burrow, roach speed, roaches and infestors. If I try to go for infestors, which I have, I may have about 3 infestors out with only 1 fungal per infestor. Is not enough. Thats a big 'may'. Sometimes the infestors are w/out energy for the fungals when the wave hits.

Which makes me think that I might be harvesting few gas? How many extractors and when do I need to get them? I have seen pro's getting them about the 6:00 min mark and just two of them. Two extractors seem rather low though.

I don't like mutas. So I usually go for hydras. Maybe I should just skip the hydras. And save that gas for more roaches.

Monkey - behind in tech, I agree. Behind economically. Not by much. Toss maybe has 5-10 less drones than me.
roach burrow stomps all over this. Also infestor lings. Scout for tech early. Don't be afraid to sac an overlord or two.

Research discount saves Protoss all of 25 min and 25 gas at +2. Really makes a difference. I should probably make the obvious statement that this is sarcasm, otherwise some of you might be mistaken.
I appreciate the tips. Some things I should have said in the original post. First. I am not dying because over droning, I stop when I scout it, usually somewhere in the 45-55 drone range. I do take a quick third. I do scout it.

I am not saying it is unbeatable. Please re-read. I am saying it is quite hard to stop in comparison to the effort involved in executing it.

The closest thing I can compare it to, is the original 4-gate: Lose a queen = gg. Engage it too early = gg. Lose an overlord = gg. Get supply capped during the push = gg. Don't scout it = gg (though this is not my problem). Overdrone = gg.

Same exact things that applied to the original version of the 4-gate. Beatable but very demanding to do so.
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Question to the better players.

Do you need both roach speed and ling speed to beat this push? Usually I am gas starved in the process of defending it, which forces lings, which are substandard to roaches and hydras.

Not to mention that if I miss an inject or two, or get my queen sniped, protoss WILL out produce me.
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Elite - good point on the blink nerf time. I forgot about it. But add the upgrade buff which murders lings...


On some level, I just don't see what the issue is. Properly executed 4 gates, and/or 3-gate robo timings are way more difficult to handle most games than 6 gate pushes. If you are THAT good at scouting it/seeing it coming and you aren't over-droning, then I'm struggling to see how you would have issues holding it off. A good roach/hydra concave at any ramp with some spines for defense should do the trick if you have the proper supply.....which if you did not overdrone, you should have the supply....it kinda really is that simple, it's almost a simple math game at that point rather than anything uber complicated.

The 6 gate timing (generally speaking) hits after your economy should be in full swing enough to support massive unit production, so if you are struggling with it, I feel like you have to be doing something else wrong that is going to be hard to identify without a replay.



That being said, working with the information that I have, this is my advice,

Ling speed (if you are using lings to hold) is pretty essential. Roach speed is not. You don't want your roaches getting outside of the defensive range of your Spines/Hydras anyway. Not too mention, good blink micro offsets getting roach speed most of the time. The burrow upgrade is way more useful. I wouldn't get roach speed unless you are considering being offensive with your roaches (all-inning first, prior to the timing and/or counter-attacking while the 6-gate is hitting you)

If you don't like Muta's fine, but you should consider then getting either banelings/infestors to supplement your roach/hydra. Particular infestors fungal growth can negate a lot of that blink micro protoss needs to get max utility out of their stalkers. And again, if you scout it coming as well as you claim, there is no reason not to set up a couple burrowed baneling traps and/or massive burrowed roach trap.

Another option would be to take your third across the map, hide your army (via burrow or just distant placement) and just base trade w/ the toss once he moves out.

One question I have is about your creep spread. 4 gate timings tend to hit when the Zerg's bases are barely connected by creep, if at all. 6 gate though, you should have creep either on top of, or pretty close to, wherever his proxy pylon happens to be. You should considering being more aggressive in finding/shutting down this pylon. Even if you can only do so after the push has begun, it can be a real game changer if the protoss has to march back-up all the way down the map, vs. being able to warp reinforcements right in.

Regarding your gas question, i think you are getting your gas way too late. Yes, there are pros who CAN hold w/ gasless defense for quite awhile due to great ling placement, surrounds, and mass spine crawler. But I think it is WAY more standard to get your first gas around the same time you get your pool, and second gas closer to the timing of your queen/shortly thereafter.

You should grab your second 2 geysers about the time your third base goes up. This is all situational of course, but waiting til the 6 minute mark to just grab 2 geysers seems very stingy to me. That, and if you truly want to emulate the gasless pros, you should keep in mind that most of them grab FOUR geysers at once as soon as they decide to start harvesting gas, not just 2. Or at least that is the way I see it played out more often than not.
well, seeing as how the all in is 7 GATE Blink all-in, your really bad if you outright die to a 6 gate blink
Thanks Valkar and extruder.

I think I am going to try infestor ling seeing as slow roaches are of limited help especially off-creep.

Creep spreed is decent from my natural, though I could probably handle it better. Thing is though; the creep spread is usually shorter (smaller radius) from my third base since it comes later and this usually is the direction from the 6-gate hits. So creep spread is probably not too good around my third.
03/06/2012 12:14 PMPosted by LGDmk
3base will hold it easy if you scout and make units.


The problem is from what I've seen of it that it's actually really hard to scout in time for you to respond and make units. I've seen A LOT of pro games recently where the toss just kills the zerg with a timing push like a 6 gate blink stalker build.

This usually happens when the toss can throw the zerg off their early game and force them to expand to a third base location first by pylon blocking the natural (which they almost always do). Ace and Hero are two pro toss players that exploit this VERY well.

Unless you are *really* on top of your scouting (which even pro zergs seem to struggle with, so it's definitely not easy), I'm actually not convinced that a quick third before gas is an appropriate response to FFE. Just seems like it makes the third way too vulnerable to toss timing pushes.

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