Why cant snipe be 30+20 psionic?

General Discussion
05/02/2012 06:01 PMPosted by Robotix
50(-25 vs massive)

Currently, Snipe is good against Infestors, Queens, and Broodlords. If it was 30+20 to Psionic, it would only add Banelings to that list (which I am fine with).


Currently, snipe is unused and useless.

Lets actually discuss what happens in game.

Ghosts have absolutely no bang for any buck in TvZ anymore.

Don't care what they are suppose to do, everyone that has tried (including me) realized it is a waste.

The pro scene is also showing this meta-game shift.

Once again, theorycraft is ever-present on these forums.
for some reason, Blizzard didn't like Snipe working so well on massive units like Ultralisks.

if that's the case, Protoss Feedback shouldn't be so effective on Battlecruisers and Thors.
It isn't. Feedback can't be spammed on units.

But you already knew that.
i dont see why everyone wants ghost to be general used unit, seems kinda op that any unit that not massive dies by it. which main problem is zerg is very costly race so terran to have unit that destroy tech switches which would be so stupid that zerg have no chance on winning. banes cost just as much as ghost does in pop, 25 is good it is strong but cant just crush zerg it becomes support unit not the main unit it self.


ghost snipe only becomes pertinent late game tvz because the huge resource sink. the money spent on one ghost could be used for one medivac one tank 1/0 0/1 stim and Combat shield. and one ghost wont get u far without upgrades.

terran need a general unit to counter zerg late game because of the zergs throw away units and the ability to insta tech switch between armored ground light ground light air and armored air in a matter of about a minute

in order to counter the ultra t need rauders which get stomped by all air and zerglings hydras and infestors which can be made late game by zerg in less than one minute

where t needs atleast 2 mins to remax against the new zerg army comp and thats after they see what comes out of the z eggs

the only counter to bls t has is the viking which is ineffective vs every other z unit

the equal pop bs is bs. pop means nothing to z they will gladly destroy 300 lings to kill 2 tanks just to remax a much more effiecient army.ALL casters are meant to be pop and recourse overefficient if used properly how is 4 supply of infestors killing 12 supply of rauders(prob more, i here ITs are pretty good) fair or 2 supply of ht killing 8 supply of rines. ghost no longer trade effectively resource wise and only see use because of nukes and emp if infestor heavy play is used in tvz

one ghost does not equal 360 dmg. the only way for the ghost to deal that much witjh snipe is to have full energy only spend on snipes and ensure that each snipe goes off before it dies(snipe has a hidden colld down which is its cast time and ur apm)

also the mechanic of casting snipe is utter garbage. u cant hold r( or whatever u hotkeyed it to) becuase if the unit does not insta die it tends to select that unit. shif ring its weird to use because u cant a move shift r because the units will kill along the a move path before attempting to snipe and u cant s stop Shift snipe because agin they will kill any units in the area befor attmepting to snipe. also if a unit qued to snipe moves out of range ALL ghost with enough energy will chase after it and attempt to snipe it.

so all in all 25 dmg is not "good nuff" STORM DOES MORE SINGLE TARGET DPS PER ENERGY THAN SNIPE DOES
woops, sorry, derp.

Did not realize you could only use it against biological. Hence why I'm a newb.
05/03/2012 07:07 AMPosted by Robotix
Snipe is also good against Queens, Ghosts, Dark Templar, and Broodlords.


queens? for the price of the ghost and the time it takes to get the energy to kill a queen you could just make marines and focus it down faster than using a ghost to snipe every .5seconds. Ghosts? seems redundant. just shoot him with marines, its cheaper and since snipe sucks vs marines now marines can mow them down. It SUCKS against BLs now. They arent psionic, so snipe does crap to them. they nerfed it because it was killing BLs easy, they arent good against BLs. DTs? Last resort maybe. But dts will kill a ghost faster than it can snipe it. Besides, if you are killing DTs you have more than ghosts.
Title says it all.

Why should it be? (or what difference would it make?) To snipe banelings. Doesnt really seem so gamebreaking. Sure you could say a marine will shoot it, but a lot of times banelings arent the only things being shot at.

I think that the whole point. You guy really think bizz happen to pick 25 and not 30 or 35 is for the banelings. Banelings is the lowest health bio unit, with 30 health, with zergling at 35. They choice 25 so it really don't kill anything one shot, plus 50 agasint caster which checking on all the bio health, is all 100 and under, which mean all caster get 2 snipe.

Blizzard really want snipe to be just anti-caster, maybe it too powerful in the right hand. Maybe, the ghost is too cheap to have a fair instant damage caster. All I know is snipe is neft to 25 non caster is just for the banelings, the lowest health unit of all race.

Opinion, i think if early ghost can destroy one shot banelings, zerg really have no counter against Terran early barrack push without infestor, which ghost counter already. So ghost counter zerg only 2 anti-death ball before tier 3.
Coped from the thread http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4241234474?page=1

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=311941

Before I begin, I would like to point everyone to a thread made by QXC on the TL Forums. While we both have a great deal of overlap on our points, he covers some topics I do not, and also has far more credibility than I do, or many others who enjoy posting on these forums.

The Snipe change was done badly and was poorly planned. It caused far more harm than it prevented.
Throughout this thread I plan to explain why this change was poorly done, and what should have been done instead. It is not too late to fix it.

Why is the Snipe change bad?

First off, we need to consider what this change was aimed to improve about the game.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4448820/Situation_Report_Patch_143-2_10_2012#blog
We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26
We wanted to improve Snipe’s effectiveness against infestors since EMPs can be difficult to land due to the unit’s size.

It was aimed to reduce the effectiveness of mass Ghost Snipe against Broodlords and Ultralisks. It was also intended to reduce the number of snipes required to kill an Infestor from three to two.
This should be setting off some alarms for you. If it isn't, allow me to explain why:

This change does not only affect Ultralisks, Broodlords, and Infestors. It negatively impacts two entire matchups.

Previous to this change, players had been experimenting and having success with Ghosts in TvT. QXC was one of the biggest names out there to really start fleshing out the possibilities of Ghosts in TvT by Sniping Marines and Marauders.
To see some of this first-hand, look below.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Ghost_First_(vs._Terran)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfSBhw75Yx0

Before I continue, I have documented the amount of required snipes before and after this change below.

Zealot
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes

High Templar
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes

Dark Templar
Before: 3 snipes
After: 3 snipes

SCV
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes

Marine
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes

Marine (Combat Shield)
Before: 2 snipes
After: 3 snipes

Marauder
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes

Reaper
Before: 2 snipes
After: 2 snipes

Ghost
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes

Drone
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes

Queen
Before: 4 snipes
After: 4 snipes

Zergling
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes

Baneling
Before: 1 snipe
After: 2 snipes

Roach
Before: 4 snipes
After: 6 snipes

Hydralisk
Before: 2 snipes
After: 4 snipes

Infestor
Before: 3 snipes
After: 2 snipes

Ultralisk
Before: 12 snipes
After: 21 snipes

Brood Lord
Before: 6 snipes
After: 10 snipes

Corruptor
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes

Overlord
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes

Overseer
Before: 5 snipes
After: 9 snipes

Mutalisk
Before: 3 snipes
After: 5 snipes

This change invalidates the use of Ghosts in TvT because the number of snipes required to kill a Marine has gone from one to two (or three if Combat Shield). This is an incredibly large change. Before, it would take 8 snipes to kill 8 marines (200 energy), but after the change it takes 16 snipes (400 energy) to kill 8 Marines. This is a reduction in stopping power by a whopping 50%. Add in Combat Shields, and the amount of Snipes required to dent the opposing army is too large. Marauders are an extremely similar situation with the required snipes jumping from 3 to 5.
It doesn't stop there.
Snipe has also become ineffective against other targets that they were previously able to fight against. For example, Banelings, Roaches, and even Mutalisks.

At mid-game against zerg, some players were using Ghosts to deal extra damage to Zerglings and Snipe down Banelings and Roaches. I myself had been experimenting with such builds.
However, Banelings now require double the amount of snipes to be killed, and roaches require two whole more snipes to kill as of this patch. It's no argument whether Snipe is effective against these targets anymore - too many snipes are required to bring Roaches and Banelings down. To reach a number of Ghosts that would be sufficient would be severely cutting into the amount of Marines, Tanks, and Medivacs a Terran player would be able to field against a Zerg player.

This means that Ghosts are no longer a viable option as damage dealers in TvT and TvZ. With the Ghost already being a rare unit, the last thing we should want would be the removal of a unit in two matchups.

If my case has not been clear, this is it:
Patch 1.4.3's Snipe change stifles creativity and removes possible strategic development that was still being explored and discovered.

So why was the change poorly done?
As I outlined above, the current implementation stifles creative development and strategic choice. This is because of how the changes have been applied to the ability.

Blizzard's Implementation:
Snipe does 25 +25 to Psionic

This is far too broad, and far too negative in too many many situations. A change like this does not simply reduce the power of Snipe against Broodlords and Ultralisks, it reduces its power by nearly 50% against almost every valid snipe target!
Coincidentally, Broodlords and Ultralisks are the only biological units in the game that also use the massive tag. We can use this to our advantage.

A much more elegant solution would be along the lines of this:

Snipe: 45 (25 VS Massive)

This change would be an improvement twofold: First, Broodlords and Ultralisks still take an increased amount of snipes (6 to 10 and 12 to 22 respectively) while simultaneously keeping all of the strategic possibility of Ghosts in the TvT and TvZ matchup. With this implementation, every unit that can be sniped still takes the same amount of damage except for Broodlords and Ultralisks, our problem units.
This however, is not what I would consider to be an ideal change, but it is the simplest and closest to Blizzard's implementation.

There are other options available. Firstly, instead of 25 damage to Massive, 30. It would look something like this:
Ultralisk
Before: 12 snipes
After: 17 snipes

Brood Lord
Before: 6 snipes
After: 9 snipes
45 to 30 is a damage reduction of 33.3% repeating (Or 1/3). This would increase the number of snipes required while also keeping Ghosts as viable option to shut down Broodlords and Ultralisks. This change would significantly affect the power of Ghosts VS Broodlords and Ultralisks, but not as critically as Blizzard's version. This would allow Ghosts to still be a viable option against Broodlords and Ultralisks. As Aldrexus said, We felt that the Snipe ability was countering broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well.This will only reduce the amount of damage Ghosts deal to Broodlords and Ultralisks by 1/3. Everything else remains the same.

Perfect.

This does however, leave one of Blizzard's desired implications from this patch out: The amount of snipes required to kill an Infestor.
There are actually several options available to us to change this relationship without affecting anything else at all.

Option 1:
Snipe deals 46 damage base up from 45. This keeps the amount of snipes required to slay every other unit in the game exactly the same EXCEPT for Infestors.

Option 2:
Snipe gains a bonus of anywhere from 1 to 5 damage against Psionic targets. Like above, nothing is killed in less snipes except for Infestors.

Option 3
Snipe deals 50 base damage up from 45. This would not change the amount of snipes required to kill anything except for other Ghosts and Infestors, but would increase the amount of possibilities for this ability while also making Infestors a two-shot kill.

Option 4:
While undoubtably the most undesirable, it is still an alternative.
Reduce the Infestor's health.

With that, I leave you my simplest personal suggestion that I feel changes the least while also meeting the criteria of the intented effects of this patch.

Snipe: Deals 46 damage. (30 VS Massive).

I want to state that I do not completely agree with the suggestions I offered above because I feel that 25 or 30 damage is an overnerf of snipe against massive targets, but given how aggressively Snipe was nerfed (without a PTR to boot), I figured it would be a waste of effort and time to even try to argue that 35 damage VS Massive is a sufficient nerf.

I suppose I'm doing just that right now though.

35 to Massive, down from the original 45 would be an effective reduction in the power of snipe by 28.6%. I think this would be the ideal amount of damage against Broodlords and Ultralisks, and this is why:
Ultralisk
Before: 12 snipes
After: 15 snipes

Brood Lord
Before: 6 snipes
After: 8 snipes

This change would be perfect. Absolutely perfect. Snipe would still be an effective option against Broodlords and Ultralisks, but it would not be as effective. In fact, it would require 25% more snipes against Ultralisks and 33.3% repeating (1/3) more snipes against Broodlords. This would be by definition, a slight tweak, which according to the posts made by Blizzard on this topic, is exactly what they're looking to do.

We want Ghosts and we want Snipe back in our TvTs and TvZs.
It doesn't need to be like this.
In case I wasn't clear, snipe was reduce to 25 so it can't one shot the banelings. Banelings are zerg only counter to mass marines, early game. It really sad the reason to nerf snipe to 25 damage, but it do make sense. Banelings have the lowest health in the game, put too important to be one shot, instantly kill from far away by 25 energy. So they nerf the damage to don't one shot kill any non-caster unit that use gas. Sadly Banelings use gas but not caster, unless they can make snipe do x damage to caster and high health, but low gas ratio unit.
And how did you ascertain that the role of snipe is to be only used against casters?
Because I have evidence that shows otherwise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbly6FLjSQ at 0:34 - A video shown during the campaign, showcasing Ghosts taking out Roaches using snipe.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ghost
Can eliminate biological targets using high-caliber Sniper rounds.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/brood-lord
The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this.

Where's your evidence,as the same would seem to apply to banelings,according to the notes.
snipe was reduce to 25 so it can't one shot the banelings. Banelings are zerg only counter to mass marines, early game.
I've seen plenty of pro's get out a few quick roaches early on,which seem to deal with marines reasonably well. Your proposed changes for snipe would seem to be pretty techical,programming wise. Do you really think that blizzard is going to implement a change that extensive when they are working on HOTS,currently?
And how did you ascertain that the role of snipe is to be only used against casters?
Because I have evidence that shows otherwise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xbly6FLjSQ at 0:34 - A video shown during the campaign, showcasing Ghosts taking out Roaches using snipe.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/ghost
Can eliminate biological targets using high-caliber Sniper rounds.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/brood-lord
The biggest strength of Brood Lords is their ability to create massive numbers of Broodlings. Take Brood Lords out instantly using ghosts and their snipe ability to prevent this.

Where's your evidence,as the same would seem to apply to banelings,according to the notes.
snipe was reduce to 25 so it can't one shot the banelings. Banelings are zerg only counter to mass marines, early game.
I've seen plenty of pro's get out a few quick roaches early on,which seem to deal with marines reasonably well. Your proposed changes for snipe would seem to be pretty techical,programming wise. Do you really think that blizzard is going to implement a change that extensive when they are working on HOTS,currently?

Will i don't know what you believe, but all i know is that they reduce it to 25 damages because baneling is the only unit that the dev would think about when they use reduce it to 25. I really don't think they care about marine, zealot, or zergling being one shot, but baneling is too expensive to be one shot, especialy after they get armor upgrade and baneling have the lowest health in the game, therefore they reduce the damage to dont one shot baneling.
Now snipe was design against Caster. Sure maybe it didn't back before, but now as you can see snipe was nerf to do 25 damage and 50 against caster. Your :http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/unit/brood-lord: information is outdated, unless having addition shot is still consider counter. Start thinking the reason for the change and not the past.
AngryProbes
Don't worry, when HotS comes out they'll realize that they made Zerg way too powerful and start nerfing their units one by one.

It feels good to play to Protoss.


Yes don't worry once you have successfully given Blizzard 40$ they will make sure you are satisfied with more retarded balance changes that help your race.
Bump because Snipe needs to not suck.
05/04/2012 12:17 AMPosted by Raven
Snipe is also good against Queens, Ghosts, Dark Templar, and Broodlords.


queens? for the price of the ghost and the time it takes to get the energy to kill a queen you could just make marines and focus it down faster than using a ghost to snipe every .5seconds. Ghosts? seems redundant. just shoot him with marines, its cheaper and since snipe sucks vs marines now marines can mow them down. It SUCKS against BLs now. They arent psionic, so snipe does crap to them. they nerfed it because it was killing BLs easy, they arent good against BLs. DTs? Last resort maybe. But dts will kill a ghost faster than it can snipe it. Besides, if you are killing DTs you have more than ghosts.


Snipe is still good vs. Broodlords.

Originally, Snipe was good vs. Broodlords and Ultralisks. It took 6 Snipes to kill a Broodlord and 12 Snipes to kill an Ultralisk. It now takes 10 Snipes to kill a Broodlord and 21 Snipes to kill an Ultralisk.

Considering 12 Snipes to kill a 300/200 melee unit was good, killing a 300/250 siege air unit from outside of it's attack range with 10 Snipes is still good. Also considering Snipe now kills an Infestor in 2 hits instead of 3, Ghosts single-handedly beat Infestor/Broodlord.

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