[PvZ Build] 2-base Mothership Expand

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07/25/2012 08:37 AMPosted by EthanKairos
How many Stargates do you guys add on when making a Carrier transition? I wanna try this the next time my opponents try Baneling/Hydralisk or Baneling/Infestor on me.


I add on 2 more when I'm taking my 4th base, then I'll add a couple more when I'm maxed and ready to start trading armies/supply. If you can, start dumping Zealots into their expansions, try to kill mining and stuff, then replace the supply with Carriers and Archons.

There's a replay of the Carrier transition in the 2nd post of this thread, at the bottom.
So I'm looking at White-Ras stream and he just did something similar to this. Like, really similar.
OK, so a quick amendment to the build.

I've actually had a Zerg deny my expansion and kill me by going straight for Corrupter Ling - Corrupters to kill the Mothership and fight Void Rays decently, and lings to prevent my cannons from ever finishing.

So, I fought it again and decided to just stay on 2 bases, wait for a Vortex and Archon/Zealot toilet them. It worked out. http://drop.sc/229437
OK, so a quick amendment to the build.

I've actually had a Zerg deny my expansion and kill me by going straight for Corrupter Ling - Corrupters to kill the Mothership and fight Void Rays decently, and lings to prevent my cannons from ever finishing.

So, I fought it again and decided to just stay on 2 bases, wait for a Vortex and Archon/Zealot toilet them. It worked out. http://drop.sc/229437
Ah, thanks :)

Also, how are you dealing with mutas into hydra roach? I scout the spire early and see the mutas and get anion pulse crystal upgrade + 10 Phoenixes, and I can deny muta harass completely with the help of cannons, but then As my Mothership pops out, I cannot seem to take the 3rd as I do not have enough gates and units and he has way too many hydras for me to be able to take that 3rd base even with 1 vortex ready on Mothership.

Please enlighten me :)
OK, so a quick amendment to the build.

I've actually had a Zerg deny my expansion and kill me by going straight for Corrupter Ling - Corrupters to kill the Mothership and fight Void Rays decently, and lings to prevent my cannons from ever finishing.

So, I fought it again and decided to just stay on 2 bases, wait for a Vortex and Archon/Zealot toilet them. It worked out. http://drop.sc/229437
Ah, thanks :)

Also, how are you dealing with mutas into hydra roach? I scout the spire early and see the mutas and get anion pulse crystal upgrade + 10 Phoenixes, and I can deny muta harass completely with the help of cannons, but then As my Mothership pops out, I cannot seem to take the 3rd as I do not have enough gates and units and he has way too many hydras for me to be able to take that 3rd base even with 1 vortex ready on Mothership.

Please enlighten me :)


Your Mothership should have been started before you scouted a Spire. They put their Spire down at 9:30 at the earliest (at least economically). You should start your Mothership and just put out Phoenix off your Stargates. Keep doing it until he stops making Mutas. If he follows his Mutas up with Corrupters to fight your Phoenix, Zealot Archon all-in him.
07/27/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Sidewinder
You should start your Mothership and just put out Phoenix off your Stargates
Ah, that was my mistake - no wonder I was so far behind... I needed that mothership sooner than later. I went for phoenix and the upgrade before MS. I'll do the reverse next time - it makes sense the way you explain it now :D
07/27/2012 02:53 PMPosted by Zamara
You should start your Mothership and just put out Phoenix off your Stargates
Ah, that was my mistake - no wonder I was so far behind... I needed that mothership sooner than later. I went for phoenix and the upgrade before MS. I'll do the reverse next time - it makes sense the way you explain it now :D


I have been having a lot of trouble with Muta openings lately, too. I think I might work in a Phoenix to scout what's going on, rather than making a Stalker to push away overlords.
Hmmm, it could be a weakness, although it feels like you can get only a few Phoenix and get your mothership > a 3rd base > followed by templar tech and defending the hydra waves with archons, zealots and cannons while using mothership + cannons and phoenix for defense.
07/27/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Zamara
Hmmm, it could be a weakness, although it feels like you can get only a few Phoenix and get your mothership > a 3rd base > followed by templar tech and defending the hydra waves with archons, zealots and cannons while using mothership + cannons and phoenix for defense.


I'd only start with 1, and only continue if they actually put a Spire down. But even then, it can just mean Corrupters.

I need to figure it out. Probably start 1 Phoenix right as the Mothership starts, since you can't afford to produce on both Stargates with 400 gas been sucked down. By that time, you'll be able to see what is actually coming out of their production buildings in response to your Void Rays.
I tried a few times going carrier instead of immortals and didnt quite managed to make it work yet.

If i go immortals the game usually end when i push as soon as i hit 200/200 and i win (really, i never lost when the zerg let me get to 200, only before that).

If i go carriers, the game last so much more and it feels harder to kill his army + remax.
07/31/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Aldrighi
If i go carriers, the game last so much more and it feels harder to kill his army + remax.
You're probably not making enough Archons, do not have enough bases to support 3+ stargate Carriers, or aren't controlling your Mothership well enough. Carrier + Mothership and a few archons is pretty powerful, but if you have 6 Carriers + 10-12 Archons + 3-4 HT + Mothership + either stalkers or zealots or air units (void rays), Zerg cannot touch you and you can instantly win. It takes slightly longer than getting immortals out, but Carriers are more versatile, and are MUCH more powerful than immortals.
I dont like using vortex when i have carriers unless its absolutely necessary, like in a clump of corruptors or infestors, because the interceptors go inside it too (making it harder to snipe stuff with them). So the carriers wont do nearly as much as they could while waiting for the vortex to end.

Besides, a mass of roaches (with infestor and corruptors support ofc) just destroy pure archons on the ground before the carriers can kill them right? Then all he'll have to worry about is your pure air force after that. I guess we can say its more micro intensive in the big battles (HT vs infestors, archons trying to go inside the vortex/killing corruptors, etc) and leave it at that.

6 immortals behind chargelots/archons are pretty insane in terms of damage too, even vs hydras, and they are hard to be killed.

It never hapenned to me, but if the zerg remaxes on lings then you just go and kill him right? If he remaxes on anything else ground-wise, the immortals will destroy it.
High Roach counts aren't that big of a deal in the late game because of the fact that you have Vortex. If you Vortex anything and put Archons in there, you're sure to get a much better trade than you should.

The Carriers just add longevity. You don't have to switch into Carriers if you don't feel comfortable, but if you try to stay on Immortal, Zealot, Archon past 4 bases, then you're simply relying on one good trade to win you the game. If that never happens and they just turtle and spread out well, you will eventually lose your army and be pretty boned.

This replay demonstrates why Carriers are eventually required: http://drop.sc/229457 - if you tried to engage that final battle without Carriers, there's no way you win. Throughout the game, if you tried to engage into his spines, it's pretty debatable that you'd actually break through.
Speaking of that replay, any particular reason you didn't Chrono Boost your starting Void Rays, Sidewinder? I found that to be going against the build order, where you explicitly said that it was ideal for the Void Rays to be Chrono'd out hard.
07/31/2012 11:15 AMPosted by EthanKairos
Speaking of that replay, any particular reason you didn't Chrono Boost your starting Void Rays, Sidewinder? I found that to be going against the build order, where you explicitly said that it was ideal for the Void Rays to be Chrono'd out hard.


I never Chronoboost the first two because you can't afford it. The build states to chronoboost the 2nd pair of Void Rays, which if I didn't, it's because I forgot or was busy worrying about something else.
Just tried this out! I LOVE THIS BUILD. I vortex'd all of his corruptors he couldn't do anything, of course after that he focus fired the mothership but still it's fun! I have a little trouble grasping the voids i usually like to pump out some gateway units though haha. :D TY!
08/03/2012 01:41 AMPosted by Newguy
I have a little trouble grasping the voids i usually like to pump out some gateway units though haha. :D TY!
That's the beauty and flexibility of the build. you don't need gate units as such with 8-10 void rays on the field.

I even lost my main base nexus to a 1 base nydus + roach once, but because I had 8 voidrays out already, After I cleaned up his army, nydus and ovies, I went straight for his main where he had like 3 spores and 3 queens, and with some micro, I just owned them, the Lair, the tech, the natural and almost every single drone that tried to run.

Charged up, 8 Void Rays do TERRIBLE TERRIBLE damage to buildings and roaches :D Add cannon support in this build's defense, and maybe 1 sentry if you absolutely need to, and you do not really need gate units. You can tech straight up to mothership THEN get gates and templar tech + 3rd base, all VERY safely.
08/03/2012 05:22 AMPosted by Zamara
You can tech straight up to mothership THEN get gates and templar tech + 3rd base, all VERY safely.


This is a point I really need to drill into my head because I tend to get my Gates even before starting my Mothership. It's probably because I'm absolutely paranoid about Hydra counterattacks.
Build order has been slightly updated to improve scouting.
08/03/2012 07:16 AMPosted by EthanKairos
You can tech straight up to mothership THEN get gates and templar tech + 3rd base, all VERY safely.


This is a point I really need to drill into my head because I tend to get my Gates even before starting my Mothership. It's probably because I'm absolutely paranoid about Hydra counterattacks.
Honestly, 4-5 cannons + 10 void rays and 2 sentries EAT hydra/roach for breakfast, and if your mothership is out (even with < 100 energy), Zerg is screwed and stuck with making either more hydras or slowing down his aggression and having to tech to spire.

If he went straight for spire, then your superior VR numbers will chew early corruptors down, and even so, you'd be free to take your 3rd with your Mothership because if Zerg went for a lot of corruptors to snipe your mothership or kill your void rays, his roach army will be small. By the time you're taking your 3rd, you be able to plant down 8-10 cannons easily, and start adding gates and warp-ing in zealots to help your void-ray mothership. By the time Zerg is ready to attack your 3rd, you will have templar tech anda few archons out already.

Just micro your MS at that stage and make sure you get a vortex down and send your archons in to clean it up with zealot/cannons/Void Rays killing roaches.Even if you lose the Mothership here, it is fine since you will have just won a major battle, and you can just counter attack with a 10-12 gate zealot/Archon force and snipe/shut down his expansions, while rebuilding your Mothership, taking a 4th base and just being wary fo counter attacks (warp-ing in units where needed).

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