THOR/WARHOUND Fix

Terran Discussion
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I just wanted to post the link to a thread that I completely support and I think the game developers should take a serious look at this.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6521293507

Give THORS HAYWIRE and remove their AA attack!
Give us a warhound that acts as a goliath that then fills the AA role!!!

This is better on soooooo many levels!!! Finally terran has a more mobile AA ground unit that won't get magic boxed by mutas that also has more health and survivability than marines!

If Thors have haywire ability, then they become the siege line breakers they are intended to be! Also, you probably will never see more than 5-10 Thors, so there won't be like 30 haywire missiles going off at any time!!!

Please thumbs up this thread, and show some love to the OP of the link I posted!!!
Could be interesting...

What would the goliath AA range be? And would it have splash? In terran mech thors are pretty important for helping deal with BLs. The high rage helps a lot. This could work but would depend highly on the damage of the goliath without making it too strong. Once a zerg gets a ton of mutas sometimes the only thing that can deal with it is splash damage. A few thors are able to keep a lot of mutas away, but several goliaths might have a tough time against mass mutas...

What are your thoughts on that?

Edit: Though I do like the idea of making the thor more of a seige-breaker, I don't know if terran could part with their only AA splash.
Why not make the Goliath like a mobile missile turret? With very similar damange output and splash. Two rockets to the sky, and splash damage. Goliath range could also be a researchable ability, just like it was in Brood war. I don't think anyone would argue that a missile turret is too strong versus mutas, so the goliath is basically just a walking missile turret.

Or even one more idea, you could just make the goliath as the AA part of the thor, so it does exactly what the Thor's AA does now, except it would be on a smaller and less health goliath.

However, I like the idea of a mobile missile turret much better, with a weak ground attack haha. If it had a weak ground attack as well, it should not be able to use both at the same time. It should have priority to attacking air units first.
09/14/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Gunner
Why not make the Goliath like a mobile missile turret? With very similar damange output and splash. Two rockets to the sky, and splash damage. Goliath range could also be a researchable ability, just like it was in Brood war. I don't think anyone would argue that a missile turret is too strong versus mutas, so the goliath is basically just a walking missile turret.


That actually sounds pretty reasonable... Maybe it has an armoury ability that adds splash and range together so that muta timings can still do a lot of damage. That would be pretty cool.

TvT would change a bit with less dominance of viking control over your army, wouldn't break anything there I think. Only problem I see with this is that the goliath would be almost useless in TvP unless it had enough perk...
[quote="65706262469"]Only problem I see with this is that the goliath would be almost useless in TvP unless it had enough perk...


I disagree. Especially with units like Tempest, Carrier, Oracle, and void ray, the goliath may be the perfect solution to help Terran mech deal with all of these units.

Especially with tempest range at 15, players would need to use goliaths/vikings to chase these units down while maintaining a push with their ground army consisting of hellions, tanks, and thors with the haywire ability.
09/14/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Gunner
I disagree. Especially with units like Tempest, Carrier, Oracle, and void ray, the goliath may be the perfect solution to help Terran mech deal with all of these units.


Ehhhhh maybe.... I still think vikings will deal with protoss air wayyyy better than goliaths, as they always have.

Maybe this tempests and oracles, but I still don't see carriers or void rays being that viable against terran anyways (which I guess I can't complain about goliaths not being that great in tvp if these units aren't used often either).

I still disagree that they will be made often in tvp, but tvt and especially tvz could be pretty cool with this.
Worth a SHOT! That would make mech more viable.
I think one thing that would also make a difference however would be the splash damage.

You are correct, that if Protoss doesn't make any air units, then the goliath is useless. But you could say the same in a zerg matchup. If he goes Ultra/infestor you shouldn't make goliaths either.

But if the goliath has a researchable ability that improves its range and splash damage, I will definitely send those in to battle a group of clumped up void rays or phoenix or carriers.
Also, as a side note, I think this is something that will be good for protoss Micro, as they will also have to be concerned about splitting up any air units that they decide to bring along with their death ball!
09/14/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Gunner
But you could say the same in a zerg matchup. If he goes Ultra/infestor you shouldn't make goliaths either.


That's true.

09/14/2012 02:33 PMPosted by Gunner
But if the goliath has a researchable ability that improves its range and splash damage, I will definitely send those in to battle a group of clumped up void rays or phoenix or carriers.


Also true.

09/14/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Gunner
I think this is something that will be good for protoss Micro, as they will also have to be concerned about splitting up any air units that they decide to bring along with their death ball!


Skillrays are supposed to be self-micro though :(
Hahaha Skillrays are certainly self-micro in their current state.

And I think a goliath would be coming in at the perfect time in this stage of the beta, because Protoss certainly has one of the most impressive air fleets now!! With phoenix, void ray, carrier, tempest, oracle, Terran will certainly have its hands full to take down air units! Especially if the phoenix quickly clean up the terrans vikings!
09/14/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Gunner
phoenix, void ray, carrier, tempest, oracle


Ya wow it is hard to come to terms with the fact that we have 6 air units including mothership.
So now if we look at the new possibilities, the Thor is now our haywire specialist who protects Terran tanks from those mean and nasty immortals. However, since you will probably have around 5 thors, compared to 50 warhounds, you won't see 50 supply of immortals, sentries, and colossus simply disappear off of the map from mass haywires. And then if someone does decide to mass Thors, Protoss should have plenty of air units to counter that because Thor will not have an AA attack now.
One excellent point that was also brought up, is that in TvZ, If thors are the main unit for AA, the viper with it's blinding cloud ability will easily be able to blind 1-2 thors which might make this too difficult for terrans to deal with mass muta.

But if there are 12-14 goliaths on the field supporting a mech army, the viper might only blinding cloud half of them, giving the terran a fighting chance versus the mutas and broodlords and whatnot.
Thors already work well as siege line breakers. So do (stimmed) marauders. I don't think thors need this buff and I think would be better off w/ a small speed boost. Oh yeah and w/ the right placement/compositions banshees work pretty well.
aka: I don't think thors need haywire, though maybe the haywire ability needs to make love to the strike cannons and then give thors the love child.
ON second thought, this is a really good idea. Remove strike cannons and replace it with haywire. This will allow Thors to contend with Immortals and colossus by which they get currently owned; however, the warhound/Goliath would have to have pretty good AA and pretty good all around abilities.
Wonderful idea. Haywire is ten times better than strike cannons (do people even use that?), Goliaths would be able to counter muta and other air better than thor because of cheaper building costs. And thor would be the seige breaker unit that Blizzard was looking for rather than the warhound. I dont see where you could go wrong with this idea, and i really hope Blizzard picks up on this.

Plus, despite what other people say, i like the Goliath voice. Sounds like a mix between man and machine cyborg type deal, pretty bouse.
I am 100% for the idea of removing the 250 mm cannons and replacing it with Haywire.

Even if the Haywire was nerfed to only do like 20 damage as opposed to 30!!!
On a side note, it shouldn't be too difficult for blizzard to add the Goliath to the game, am i right? The Goliath unit was part of the WoL campaign, and as far as I remember the design and voices were fantastic for the unit. I hope that blizzard gives this thread some love and just comments on whether they like the idea or not!!!
Great point by OP

The problem with warhound is range 7 and mobile is an issue early for other races. The toss/zerg basically just needs to hope your micro sucks. Without hellions warhounds would not be a problem (lings/chargelots) but that isnt very realistic. 2 warhounds and 2-6 hellions is a nightmare for zerg. For toss a line of streamed/microed warhounds will negate gateway and let terran mass expo. Hydras are still way to dodgy vs mech to work for z.

Upgrade Option: Implement as described by OP (haywire to thor - thor loses aa) and the warhound has good AA (range 7 - no splash) but needs to pay a 100/100 range upgrade (armory) for a ground range increase of 5 to 7 vs ground. Until the upgrade, forcefields would be viable. Putting it on the armory delays it enough (with the contention with basic upgrades) that it makes it a choice what to get for terran. A quick teching zerg could be at hive in time. This would reduce early game brokenness vs both zerg and toss. It would also make warhound still strong vs toss and zerg late game (attack colossus via aa attack).

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