That same 3 hatch roachling zvp build

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Why the hell would you have 3 bases when you have only 24 drones. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. 24 drones is enough to fully min. and gas sat. your main base.
10/30/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Hunta
Why the hell would you have 3 bases when you have only 24 drones. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. 24 drones is enough to fully min. and gas sat. your main base.


/facepalm
10/30/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Hunta
Why the hell would you have 3 bases when you have only 24 drones. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. 24 drones is enough to fully min. and gas sat. your main base.


From the outside it looks like i am doing exactly what every zerg does, which makes the protoss think he can do whatever he wants for 11 minutes.

If you watch every single zvp pro game that is casted, every single time without fail, the casters will talk about how the scouting probe doubles back to verify the 3rd base. They will stress its importance, because it means that there is no aggression coming from the zerg. Every single game. The protoss will see the 3rd and will not look for anything else until they have a stalker which may control watch towers, and may poke at the 3rd, at around the 8 minute mark.
this is the standard belief, and it is false. any protoss who is simply emulating a pro gamer will be caught off guard and die.

remember, 24 drones is apprxoimately what you need for double inject constant zergling production. Because I get the 3rd hatchery, I skip the 2nd queen, so that my production still matches my economy. (not to mention that you can't afford gboth queens and the 3rd hatch when you are mining gas).

Do i think that i could beat a code S protoss with my build?

probably not. I guarantee that I would catch him completely unawares, but he'd probably kick my !@# with 1 sentry and his probes and godly micro. But I think that a Code S zerg would absolutely stomp them with it, and it would force protoss into much more active scouting and safer play.
i did beat killer (sang ho) on ladder when he was warming up for MLG, so there is some merit, and he wasn't taking any risks (beyond what every protoss does).
10/30/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Hunta
Why the hell would you have 3 bases when you have only 24 drones. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. 24 drones is enough to fully min. and gas sat. your main base.


lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
09/24/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Oboeman
I am still doing it. and it is still working.


Just wondering, what maps do you like to do this the most? Are there any maps that you never do this? What build do you fear when doing this strat?
Every map.

on longer maps, the timing is much tighter, so i'm more likely to go with 5 roaches instead of 7 because every second counts.
if you don't want to do it on every map, do it on maps that you don't like to play ZvP on.
You should use your vetos for ZvT and ZvZ only, and on the maps that you would want to veto ZvP (entombed, ohana), collect your free win.
>Random FWIW< It works alright in the hots beta as well. >_>

I thought that the mothership core nexus defense ability might be a problem, but getting the mothership core early enough to have the energy to use the ability (which to be fair, most toss do) slows down tech a little, leaving them with even fewer gateway units when the attack hits. The nexus cannon doesn't really do enough damage for it to matter.

I haven't tried it in a few patches though.
I've been playing with this opening and although it works very well, it's starting to become common knowledge amongst Protoss.

I'm wondering...

What if you exploited this metagame wise, open 11 pool, force the protoss to open forge first, and if he wants to put up a nexus then cannon in time he won't be able to pylon your natural - which means you only need to make 2 lings.

Once you chase away his probe with 2 lings, you take gas, hatch, roachden, but only harvest 100 gas and make 4 roaches, then take your third before 6 minutes, and just pump drones.

This does two things:

1. forces P to take forge first unless he wants lings in his bases, but you anticipate that and so you only build 2.

2. you fake playing sloppy and let him see your roaches coming and he responds with an immediate cannon spam. Now, if you get lucky, he may panic and go starport instead of robo as well as forcing him to lay down additional cannons.

This throws off the timings for any kind of gateway pressure and it throws off the timing for the dreaded 6 gate robo. You saturate 3 base, get to lair by 8-9 minutes. If he went robo, you now have plenty of time to saturate your bases and have hydras up in time (proxy build hydra den somewhere in some corner of the map). If he takes a third with just stargate, you have alot of options like roach max and ling run bys, or fast hive, or mass infestor, etc.

The whole point being, you could use this pressure to throw off Protoss 2 base timings. Which...are @#$@#$@#$#@$#@@#$#@#@$@#$#@ ridiculous as sh!t.
This throws off the timings for any kind of gateway pressure and it throws off the timing for the dreaded 6 gate robo.


It also throws off all of your timings, by even more.
my experience is that any mild pressure will hurt yourself more than your opponent.
take it all-in or nothing.

11 overpool is ok. it does force a forge and it guarantees your natural, but it's not as good as 15pool for 3 base play. I feel like toss should be a little bit cautious against 11overpool.
how does this measure up to a toss who goes nexus first into 4gate? timing is almost identical. do u kill him or can he hold it off?
my experience is that any mild pressure will hurt yourself more than your opponent.
take it all-in or nothing.


i agree vs toss, since they rely on super cost effective cannons and sentries for defense, that theres a tipping point where u go from doing no damage to killing them, as compared to playing vs terran or zerg where u can mild pressure and deal damage and transition
You know this is what I do to terrans that are quick expo too... the constant flood of lings does wonders...especially if they try to run their scvs into their main and you follow them :-) But its trickier because they ALWAYS get a banshee so you have to be quick and smart with the damage you deal. It never kills them, but it always maims them pretty badly. :-)
You know this is what I do to terrans that are quick expo too... the constant flood of lings does wonders...especially if they try to run their scvs into their main and you follow them :-) But its trickier because they ALWAYS get a banshee so you have to be quick and smart with the damage you deal. It never kills them, but it always maims them pretty badly. :-)


doesnt work if they cc first...but if they 1rax fe its good to pressure a bit.
10/30/2012 07:47 PMPosted by stephead
Why the hell would you have 3 bases when you have only 24 drones. That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard. 24 drones is enough to fully min. and gas sat. your main base.


/facepalm


I facepalm you right back -.- I understand the mind games part of it but its 300 minerals that could help your all in. Unless you are going to use it for production but thats unlikely on 24 drones, or is it?
I facepalm you right back -.- I understand the mind games part of it but its 300 minerals that could help your all in. Unless you are going to use it for production but thats unlikely on 24 drones, or is it?

3 hatcheries, 1 queen, 24 drones.

remember, 24 drones is apprxoimately what you need for double inject constant zergling production. Because I get the 3rd hatchery, I skip the 2nd queen, so that my production still matches my economy. (not to mention that you can't afford gboth queens and the 3rd hatch when you are mining gas).
11/04/2012 09:47 PMPosted by Chris
how does this measure up to a toss who goes nexus first into 4gate? timing is almost identical. do u kill him or can he hold it off?


kill him.
You're right that the timing is close, but you should still be hitting before warpgate finishes. against a heavily chronoboosted warpgate build, the timing is much tighter, and that means that if you execute it sloppily on a long map, you might be late, but from experience, if you execute it cleanly you are easily there in time.

As long as your attack arrives before warpgate finishes, you WILL get through the wall and should be able to win the game. But if he is finishing warpgate at ~7:45, then you cannot afford to be late.
against some other builds you can hit as late as 8:15 and still walk all over him, but against a fast warpgate build, you have to be there 7:30-7:40.

if he starts building cannons while you are attacking, he can't afford a full warp-in (and vice versa). It should still be a win for zerg, especially if you kill his forge before +1 finishes.

This isn't just a theorcrafted build that worked a few games so I thought it was pretty good. I've posted about 20 games in a row (about 30 total?) in this thread.

I had a loss the other day. know why? because he left his wall wide open (not even a zealot) so I walked my roaches straight into his natural. apparently this is a mistake, because he was able to fight with probes and hold me off and re-seal the wall and I couldn't reinforce. I killed half of his workers (evening the worker count :p) but didn't win. But if I had done what I normally do, which is to focus my effort on killing most of the wall (while running a few units through to engage what little he has), then I will constantly have lings flooding into his base. by letting him surround my roaches with probes before breaking the wall, I threw it away. oops.
11/05/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Oboeman
kill him.


i think its more likely to end up in some sort of a base race where he gets 2-3 warpins and ya, it probably comes down to whether he finishes his +1 or not.

11/05/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Oboeman
This isn't just a theorcrafted build that worked a few games so I thought it was pretty good. I've posted about 20 games in a row (about 30 total?) in this thread.


not doubting that it works, cheesy allin builds are ridiculously effective. that was just the first thing that came to mind because nexus first -> 4gate -> sentry immortal allin probably the most common build i see and the 4gate hits at your third at like 7:45ish.
kill him.


i think its more likely to end up in some sort of a base race where he gets 2-3 warpins and ya, it probably comes down to whether he finishes his +1 or not.

This isn't just a theorcrafted build that worked a few games so I thought it was pretty good. I've posted about 20 games in a row (about 30 total?) in this thread.


not doubting that it works, cheesy allin builds are ridiculously effective. that was just the first thing that came to mind because nexus first -> 4gate -> sentry immortal allin probably the most common build i see and the 4gate hits at your third at like 7:45ish.


If he warps in at your 3rd, he is 100% absolutely dead, and you can choose to either sacrifice your 3rd or save it with reinforcing zerglings. Normally you are arriving before his warpgates open, so he'd warp in at home defensively. You can easily deny the pylons easily enough as well.

My experience is that despite warpgate finishing at about the same time you arrive, it usually isn't close anyway. Maybe if you make 3 blind sentries in addition to using every chrono on warpgate, normally when you are getting 4-gate that quickly you make zealot/zealot/stalker to escort your probe to get a pylon, and then you lose your first 3 units outside your base and then lose your base.
I haven't seen 3 sentries + 7:45 warpgate, or if it happened, the guy missed his forcefields so i didn't give it any thought.
I am still doing it. and it is still working.
if you ever get angry at zvp and just want a couple of free wins, this is your build. I stopped doing it for a while because I wanted to learn how to play macro ZvP instead of cheesing every game, and now I'm sick of macro ZvP so I'm back to cheesing. it's much easier.

3 hatcheries, 1 queen, 24 drones. 6 roaches and 20 speedlings with continuous reinforcements cracking open their base at 7:45ish. They can defend it if they build and finish 5 cannons. If they start the cannons while your roaches reach their watchtower, it's already too late, they need to start the cannons (and sentries for stalling) much earlier, but they have no reason to believe that you are cheesing, because your queen denies him from scouting your main, and you have a 3rd hatchery.

http://drop.sc/257589
http://drop.sc/257590
http://drop.sc/257591
http://drop.sc/257592
http://drop.sc/257593
http://drop.sc/257594
http://drop.sc/257595
http://drop.sc/257597

Here are 8 games from the last few days. I don't need to cherrypick the good ones, these are every single game where I did this build in zvp in my last few ladder runs.

There is one loss. Shocking, I know, but it's because I screwed up the build and my roach warren was late. If you find the loss, compare the roach warren timing to the other games, and compare the attack timing. There's at least one or two other games of players doing the same build as that guy, but when my attack is crisper it still works.

fast easy wins.

zerg imba!


That's cause people you play are bad and are like.. mid master
Yes, that is mostly true.
but i also beat sangho (coLkiller, now on mvp) when he was warming up for an MLG event.
and i played a GM once (granted he was #173 or something dumb).

but yes most of them are bad.
Feel free to give it a try against better masters.

A few days ago in the Code S Ro32, DRG did a similar build against creator and dominated him. It wasn't identical though - he faked the 3rd and cancelled and hit earlier (~6:30), but without zergling speed. basically it was a bigger punch with weaker reinforcement, and creator was caught completely off guard and died.

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