That same 3 hatch roachling zvp build

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11/07/2012 11:14 AMPosted by babypho
That's cause people you play are bad and are like.. mid master


i was watching some of the replays and alot of the toss had 60-70 apm i was wondering if they were even that good, thought he might have been using a smurf account dunno, but with builds like this opponents skill doesnt really matter that much, which is why they are so strong.
Gonna start trying this out, I'm having trouble figuring out a way to safely transition into brood lords.
That's cause people you play are bad and are like.. mid master


i was watching some of the replays and alot of the toss had 60-70 apm i was wondering if they were even that good, thought he might have been using a smurf account dunno, but with builds like this opponents skill doesnt really matter that much, which is why they are so strong.


If you told me that the higher up the ladder you go, the dumber the protoss players are, I wouldn't even be surprised. It's possible. Or maybe the apm is low because it ends in early game so the game never really picks up pace at all. It's over before most zvps actually "begin."
I've been using this strategy against protoss on two player maps and have been winning about 75% of the time. I have only lost when they've preemptively put down 4-5 cannons in order to go void/phoenix. Good stuff. Sometimes, however, I get a second queen and/or a second gas for evo chamber and carapace upgrade.
Idra used a faster better 2 base version hf this to win a tournement a long time ago. Everyone was shocked ge was not macroing and got stomped. This is also why I don't like using the FFE and prefer / gateway aggressive openers vs zergies.
better

is it actually better if it is possible for them to scout it?

Apparently both DRG and Curious tried a 3rd base cancel all-in against Creator, and neither one worked. I haven't had a chance to watch the games, but I will tonight. I'm definitely curious to see what went wrong.
ok I watched the games and I am very disappointed in drg and curious.

DRG - 3 hatch 1 queen. Takes gas at ~20ish supply. Roach warren at 4:30.
At 5:30 he cancels the 3rd base, makes 6 roaches (3 in the natural, 3 in the main) and continues adding roaches 1 by 1 as well as rallying slow zerglings.
creator doesn't make a sentry. he makes a stalker + Stargate.
Because the roaches were split up, he showed his first 3 roaches, giving creator more time to react while DRG wasn't doing very much damage. But he still gets through the wall, and kills cannons, but ultimately ends up surrounded by probes and dying. DRG gg'd before the first void ray could get in the action anyway.

It was the identical build he did on cloud kingdom vs creator in the Ro32 (successfully).

I think if he had injected his natural instead of his main and had all 6 roaches pop out together and go at the same time, it would have worked better.
but i still like my build better. DRG hits earlier, but no zergling speed so it is a much weaker attack, without reinforcement.

Curious's game was even worse. To me it looked like he hadn't even practiced the build, and made it up on the spot after watching DRG.
he did exactly the same thing, except with a baneling nest. no zergling speed.
Because banelings don't need to walk across the map, he hits way earlier than DRG.
This time Creator did make a sentry.
Curious busts the zealot + pylon, and gets.... 6 slow lings into creator's main base. no that isn't enough to do anything. creator re-walls.
didn't like the build. zenio's bust is way better.

get zergling speed dude!

I am glad to see pro zergs experimenting with 3rd base fake builds.
but i am not discouraged by their failure. I think there is much room for improvement. they need to learn from Parting and put some heart and soul into those builds instead of half-assing them.
tried this last night and it failed miserably for me. Forcefields kept me from hitting what i wanted and he just picked it apart.
can you post the replay?
He should not have many forcefields available, and usually by attacking the wall you force him to use forcefields much more rapidly than he wants (because he will try to save the buildings, or if you make a hole he needs to forcefield that one as well), and because warpgate is just barely finishing (if he was chronoboosting it) he can't warp in new sentries in time and you pour into his base. Even if he is making only sentries, he has low DPS and although he buys time he still dies because your units aren't dying quickly enough.
Just wanted to add that I've never lost with this build... I think I'm at 6-0 or 7-0 with it when I run it with players ranging from plat through masters.

Also usually I'll get 4 or 5 roaches instead of 6... I have trouble getting enough gas (maybe it's a problem with my build?), 4-5 roaches seems to align with when ling speed finishes, which is when I want to hit. Hasn't given me problems so far, since I'm usually dealing with only 1 cannon anyway.
Roach/Ling terrifies me and without Force Fields of any kind, Protoss would have such a difficult time being able to win. It's legitimate though and opponents that pull it off will have me rage from how I dislike the cost-effectiveness of Roaches for most of the game. All-in-all, if the Zerg player pulls it off and shows some sportsmanship with it, then you have my respect. This is indeed a good strategy that scares me when I play against Zerg because you never know if the Zerg is going for a mutalisk tech-switch or not. That's psychological warfare right there.
Posting so I can watch these badboys when I get home : ) I just learned how to play ZvP so I shouldn't be doing this but I want to try it.
Just wanted to add that I've never lost with this build... I think I'm at 6-0 or 7-0 with it when I run it with players ranging from plat through masters.

Also usually I'll get 4 or 5 roaches instead of 6... I have trouble getting enough gas (maybe it's a problem with my build?), 4-5 roaches seems to align with when ling speed finishes, which is when I want to hit. Hasn't given me problems so far, since I'm usually dealing with only 1 cannon anyway.


When do you take your gas?
I try to get it as early as possible without being seen.
To be 100% unscoutable, you take it after your queen finishes, but that doesn't give you very much time.
But if you start it as soon as the probe turns away from your main base, even before the queen finishes, there is a very very good chance that your queen will be done before he can check your main again anyway (because he'll go past your 3rd and double back etc) so you'll still be undetected.
if you take the gas too early, you will have 200 gas for roaches, but not enough minerals.
i've found the happy medium to work out to closer to 150 gas for 6 roaches, but I will occasionally have games where I only make 4-5, and the geyser timing is usually the key.
and yes it usually is enough anyway. most games are not even close.

your attack timing is determined by your inject at your natural. as soon as that finishes, you make all the roaches and send them straight to the enemy base. don't wait for anything. Ling speed would normally finish before that, but I intentionally delay it, so that he doesn't see that I have speed. I start speed when I have 150-160 gas instead of right at 100, and that usually lets me clear his zealot off the tower with slow lings before speed finishes.

there is always the option of going double gas later instead of a single gas, but you don't have very many drones to spare and my experience is that you won't have enough minerals for the overlords AND roaches so you won't get ahead anyway.
Ive been doing an aggresive version as a counter to the constant immortal/sentry pushes. This is one of the builds that takes a 3rd. But it hits a Lot harder by delaying the 3rd till 7ish minutes.

14 hatch (Gotta use a drone to keep from being pylon blocked)
14 pool
15 gas (Keep the drones in gas till 300)
16 OL
16 2 queens
20 1 pack of scout lings
21-28 drones
28 Roach warren
27 drone
28 ling speed + 2 OL
28-44 roaches, send them immediately when they pop
44 2 OL
44-60 32 speedlings rallied to the 8 roaches, they hit the opponents ramp at 7:15
60 3rd base + 2nd and 3rd gas + lair

after this you can either stream units or can macro up. This usually wins me the game outright versus low master/high diamond. Against really good players I usually take their natural and hurt them significantly since thier forge/cyber/robo bay are typically in the natural. So then with the 3 hatches to his crippled 1 base you can outmaco the toss until you win.
:/

it seems that you misunderstand the purpose

the 3rd hatch is there to make it almost completely unscoutable.
attacking with roach/ling at 7:15-7:45 is easily stopped by forcefield and extra cannons, so all you need to do to win is make sure they have no reason to build extra cannons. if you don't make him think that you are taking a 3rd, he can easily react and stop you.

also trying to turn this into a transition to a macro build isn't a great idea. You will either win with the attack or you will be behind (or have a smaller workerlead than you would have had if you played standard). put everything you got into making that push win.
09/25/2012 08:35 AMPosted by Oboeman
When attacking, DO NOT HUMP FORCEFIELDS

wait cant roaches burrow thru forcefields? or maybe u can get a massive unit into the forcefields
11/28/2012 06:46 PMPosted by DEVASTATION
When attacking, DO NOT HUMP FORCEFIELDS

wait cant roaches burrow thru forcefields? or maybe u can get a massive unit into the forcefields


By the time you have burrow or ultras, the protoss is going to have a lot more units. The idea of this strategy is to hit a fast expanding protoss before they have a lot of units. When they see your third hatchery, they assume you won't be aggressive, so they'll play greedier by holding back on units and cannons, which will allow you to break through their wall and kill them.
11/28/2012 06:46 PMPosted by DEVASTATION
When attacking, DO NOT HUMP FORCEFIELDS

wait cant roaches burrow thru forcefields? or maybe u can get a massive unit into the forcefields


This is an attack with no lair. And it's usually the lings that are guilty of forcefield humping in this scenario. Instead of humping a forcefield or crowding around a zealot, spread out the lings to attack different buildings, and you will end up making big holes in his wall. if you hump forcefields nothing happens.
I'm at work and can't view the replays. Can someone post a food or time general build order for what oboeman is talking about. I'd like to try it out
11/29/2012 02:41 PMPosted by Mlenk
I'm at work and can't view the replays. Can someone post a food or time general build order for what oboeman is talking about. I'd like to try it out


From the replays I watched, you take your 3 bases as you normally would, the first gas starts at about 4 minutes, the second gas starts at about 5 minutes, and the roach warren goes down at about 5:30. You pull the drones off of gas once you've mined a total of 275 gas, 100 for ling speed and the rest for your roaches. You won't need anymore gas since you're reinforcing with pure speedlings. You should be ready to go by about 7:45 I think. Use your one queen to inject the hatchery closest to their base and spawn the roaches there, so they can reach the protoss faster.

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