My map-making retirement with feedback

General Discussion
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Damn you SUPEROUMAN for making me read a b.net forums thread...!@#$


Well those are pretty bad reasons. When I get bored of a game, I don't claim that it's the game fault. That's just stupid. The guy just don't like the game. This is a matter of taste, not facts.


He said he doesnt enjoy the game anymore, and people wanted more, so he took the time to write out all the reasons why, people can whine about all BW/SC2 all they want, but its disgusting reading the amount of vitriolic/hateful comments directed at him in this thread when he's only ever given to this community.

I'd completely agree if he were whining that they should change the game so he likes it etc, but he's not, he's stating why he doesnt enjoy it anymore BECAUSE PEOPLE ASKED HIM TO.

I disagree with alot of his reasons, and i enjoy the game, but he's not asking for a discussion on balance/game design, he's writing it out so you can read it and understand why he personally does not enjoy it.
09/26/2012 01:52 PMPosted by TripleMacEX
Colossus requires micro


stopped reading


They're the same as tanks. If you let them just shoot anything then you're terrible.
I think OP is right about pretty much everything he says, both in terms of game balance and the dullness of map making for a game with such rigid map layout requirements for balanced games. The base problem is that the race balance is only maintained by a very specific map design. (for instance, too open and zerglings harrass everything, too closed and protoss can always forcefield everything to death)


Well for the most part you're describing Brood War, which I love, and I know some pros on prominent teams still play, or have played within the last 6 months.


Sounded to me like he's describing most C&C games. Spells don't have smart cast, there are multiple front attacks, big comebacks, huge variety and freedom in map design (because there's no need for full wall offs to balance against zerg rushes, ramps for forcefields, and all the other quirks of SC2) plus the SAGE engine was awesome for map making.
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


Unbelievable. You talk tish on a guy who ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED TO YOUR STUPID GAME. You are one of the major reasons this game will never be good. And now the people who actually took the time to make the game better is leaving. Spoiler alert! he's not the only one.
And probably b/c the expansion shows you that the current team is so arrogant that they want to replace every single thing about scbw and make their own game. Well news flash, its not gonna be a good one.

You are lucky that so many companies have invested money and players invested their careers into this pile. Without them this game would be dead.

This game is bad, and you should feel bad. bg bad luck, have farts.

09/26/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Tuxedo
I definitely respect this guys work, and I hope he goes on to do great things. I also hope he finds a game that he can love. I personally do not agree with his points because I did not play broodwar and I fell in love with SC2. I don't want to change SC2 into broodwar. Hope this guy the best tho! mad respect.


Then you have no idea what starcraft is.


This list isn't complete, this is what i remember at this moment.


Please don't finish it, for I think this is the most pompous bit of writing I have seen today and I am an English teacher.


Same with your uninformed comment.

09/26/2012 12:48 PMPosted by PunOfASentry
I would have to agree with some of the posts above and on reddit. It sounds like mostly he wants Broodwar 2.0 and thats not what Starcraft2 is. While respecting his ability to make great maps (cloud kingdom) I can't help but read the reasons listed in the post and think that. Like Dustin Browder has said " Broodwar was a great game. Go play it" Its not Starcraft2. It won't ever be Broodwar 2.0 and frankly, I wouldn't want it to be. It sounds like a post saying I'm 'retiring' from the game because it's not exactly like the original. Don't get me wrong, I played Broodwar and it was an amazing game. But it's not this game. I almost want to say you made a fool of yourself by posting in this tone, but I want to think that it wasn't your intention. GL in the future mate.


"broodwar was a great game. go play it?" 'Go eff yourself pal', that is all that comment says to me. It shows exactly what kind of person you and him are for him saying it and you supporting it.

If SC:BW was a baboon, SC2 would be his big shiny blue butt. Cuz sure, its part of the baboon and its flashy, but on closer inspection, it STINKS.
They only thing I agree with is the DPS and this is partially because of the game speed. Have you ever wondered what the game would be like at Normal? Boring as !@#$ but it would promote a lot more micro A LOT more micro. I think lowering the game speed would be an interesting change just to see, I know that some games take REALLY long and would take LONGER but that would have to be something considered. Try playing against a good friend at a slower game speed and you would be surprised at the raised micro potential.
This reminds me of when I played a lot of RPGS, people would get upset and leave but not before posting.

Often saying imba of builds, staff favouritism or ignoring certain groups/people. Then a few accusations maybe air some dirty laundry, maybe request what ever the did be removed from the persistent world or use it to claim how the world is now missing out due to them being gone.

Then a few weeks/months later they return kinda looking silly.

much like this.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Wasif1112

I r leaving...boo hoo for me and the world is worse off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xx9reLV5Bw&feature=plcp

I am back, the world is great.

If you just go, take a break play something else and say nothing you don't have to say sorry or look silly.
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


Except that this isn't a list of why he loses games of SC2, it's a list of why he is bored by the game. You could be a top-notch player and still find the game boring as hell, and I kinda have to agree with him. About 80-90% of this game is your build and macro which makes the game tiresome. Micro has a role in the game but almost no amount of good micro or macro can pull you out of a game where you're behind. Your opponent has to make a severe mistake for you to catch up.
09/26/2012 02:14 PMPosted by HeReTiC
You were a decent mapmaker, but you're obviously a very bad and whiny player. I don't think anyone will notice a difference. Bye.


Says a guy who hasn't even placed in many seasons...
most of these seem like they're caused by your inability to become a better player.

good riddance.


Except that this isn't a list of why he loses games of SC2, it's a list of why he is bored by the game. You could be a top-notch player and still find the game boring as hell, and I kinda have to agree with him. About 80-90% of this game is your build and macro which makes the game tiresome. Micro has a role in the game but almost no amount of good micro or macro can pull you out of a game where you're behind. Your opponent has to make a severe mistake for you to catch up.


What? I see comebacks all the time in tournaments. There's so much more to this game than 'your build'. In fact, you can learn about it in one of Day9's dailies for noobs.
I can't believe how disrespectful you all are. This is a man that has shaped the SC2 metagame with his maps for a majority of the eSport's life. A lot of you idiots are saying "good riddance with your balance whining" and seem to be under the impression that he is just a noname ladder player whining. The fact is, his impact on the scene is far greater than any of you plebs in this thread. He was announced his retirement (from MAPMAKING, you idiots) and was asked for his reasons. Here, he gives them, and all you clueless and ignorant nonames bash on him for balance whining. Please.

Respect his decisions to retire from mapmaking, and respect the fact that his map is the first non-Korean and non-Blizzard map to foray into a Korean Starleague.

I don't even know why he bothered posting on B.Net forums, seeing how it is oversaturated with trash.
09/26/2012 02:32 PMPosted by HeReTiC
contrary to your statement, players--not mapmakers--shape the metagame.


09/26/2012 02:32 PMPosted by HeReTiC
it's possible to be a talented mapmaker and have little more than a rudimentary understanding of StarCraft 2.


I can't tell if you're serious. First of all, he's not whining, he's stating what about the game made him lose passion for mapmaking. He's not reaching out to David Kim, he's giving his reasons, reasons that were requested by the community, of his retirement. No on has to "justify his whining" since these thoughts were requested by the community.

And do you really think mapmakers just design maps to look pretty and hope that some pro-players will "figure it out"? No, they design their maps to have specific features that will influence, reinforce, and encourage certain playstyles and positions. Sure, sometimes pro-players will come up with map-specific strategies such as offensive factory placements in TvP on Entombed, but in general the mapmaker has a solid idea how games on his map will be played.

And I'm sorry I came off as hostile, I shouldn't have made that remark about B.Net forums. I'm just astounded that people would say things like "good riddance".
@Heretic

Just because you are able to point out logical fallacies doesn't mean you're able to see perfectly clear reasoning. Clearly you are not. People are writing off one of the most intelligent, important people in the history of the game, and ignoring his arguments just because they wrongly think he's complaining about being bad at the game. Someone could very well have never played a game of Starcraft and have more influence on the game than a developer.

Players aren't really tolerated complaining about balance because they're invested in racial balance. A mapmaker is not. They're only interested in good gameplay. And you seem to miss out on the idea of iteration. When a player breaks open a map and shows why it's not well designed with an incredibly brilliant strategy, that just means the mapmaker gets another try to make a well-designed map. Mapmakers and players continually iterate ideas off one another almost like a metagame of their own. And please, don't try to say that Superouman is not one of the most talented mapmakers in SC2.

If someone is complaining about the gameplay as it currently stands, they have nothing to gain from it. Not like players, who can say their race is too weak and make it an excuse for losing, or their playstyle, or inability or unwillingness to abuse existing mechanics effectively. Designers are held to different standards than players. So listen to this guy, he's trying to make this game better.
09/26/2012 02:32 PMPosted by HeReTiC
I can't believe how disrespectful you all are. This is a man that has shaped the SC2 metagame with his maps for a majority of the eSport's life. A lot of you idiots are saying "good riddance with your balance whining" and seem to be under the impression that he is just a noname ladder player whining. The fact is, his impact on the scene is far greater than any of you plebs in this thread. He was announced his retirement (from MAPMAKING, you idiots) and was asked for his reasons. Here, he gives them, and all you clueless and ignorant nonames bash on him for balance whining. Please.

Appeal to authority.

Respect his decisions to retire from mapmaking, and respect the fact that his map is the first non-Korean and non-Blizzard map to foray into a Korean Starleague.

I respect that, but that doesn't justify his whining. Have you ever heard some of the garbage that professional players like IdrA say? Would you say the same things to defend him? He has, after all, done a lot more to shape the metagame than this mapmaker; contrary to your statement, players--not mapmakers--shape the metagame. People like the OP design the maps, and professionals figure them out. Because of this, it's possible to be a talented mapmaker and have little more than a rudimentary understanding of StarCraft 2.

You're wrong, like completely. He isn't whining, go back and read the OP if that's what you think. Also, I'm part of the mapmaking community too, it isn't a case of "mapmaker jots down basic concept, then pro players figure it out". That just sounds stupid. Making melee maps has a lot of nuances to it, just like Starcraft 2 itself, and Superouman was part of a highly skilled mapmaking team, with a very solid understanding of how the game works, and how to make maps that encourage certain styles of play. I understand a lot of people may not appreciate this, but to say something unenlightened and disrespectful of someone whose deeds you don't really understand is simply ignorant. We're losing perhaps the best foreign mapmaker in the world, creator of one of the best maps made to date, and he's come by this thread to give more insight as to why. Understand before you blurt out something foolish.
I have not, and will never say, that SC2 is a perfect game. Its not. Ill be the first to admit it. Part, if not quite a large portion, of what made Broodwar such an amazing game, was also what made the game terrible from a design standpoint. Understandbly Broodwar has some awful AI and UI. Awful in the sense of a design standpoint. Making a unit not respond properly or having terrible pathing on purpose is poor design. Regardless of what you might think that it might increase skill cap/make the game more interesting to watch.. There is a reason Blizzard didn't go the route with Starcraft II. I would even go so far as to say Broodwar has a higher element of luck involved with it, from a unit interaction standpoint. A dragoon not firing at another unit or even a different unit can be the difference between winning and losing. In BW that can happen. In SC2 it cant. Why? Because a stalker (for the sake of a comparison to SC2 i'll use that) will always fire when its in range (assuming you want it to). There is no bug or "luck element" where the stalker might not always shoot. Broodwar had and still has these problems. There are ways to force Unit X to fire in BW by being highly skilled (thus in some peoples eyes increasing skillcap) While I agree that it increases the skill cap, I would argue that 'decreasing' Unit AI and more simply just the UI of the entire game for the sake of raising the theoretical skill cap is the wrong way to go about it.
The second most upvoted post on the reddit thread is ;
[quote]"basically, part of the reason brood war was such a difficult game to master is because half the time you are fighting against the game itself.
i dont neccessarily think thats a good thing. im not saying SC2 is perfect, but the idea that the game should be practically broken in order to make it "difficult enough" for competitive play is stupid, in my opinion"
And I completely agree. I certainly think there are improvements or modifications that can be done to SC2. Some of them are mentioned above by OP. Getting rid of symetrical maps that have half the spawns disabled is something that needs to go. I would agree the collosus needs to be changed. I can see the arguement for DPS. But mostly aside from that, his post is "I'm retiring from the game because its not Broodwar. These are the things that should be implemented to make the game more like Broodwar. Regardless of whether its good for the game or not". Designing the game around clunky pathing and bad AI is well just that, BAD! Its not the way you go making a game. There are other ways to make the game more engaging and less "deathball" than by !@#$ing over the game interface and AI/UI
Edit; Like I said in my previous post, I still have respect for him and the maps he has made in the past. But I strongly disagree that Blizzard should implement limited unit selection and get rid of automine workers and smart spellcasting for the sake of increasing the skillcap,making multiple fights happen at once, or making comebacks possible. I think he should know better, being a very skilled and prominent map-maker, than to suggest decreasing the game overall for the sake of those things. I think there are much better ways of going about it and "making the game more like Broodwar" if you want to make that comparison
You will be sorely missed Superouman. I completely respect everything you have done for the community. It took an incredible amount of dedication and work and is greatly appreciated. As well, it takes a lot of bravery to come on the forums and state why you're leaving. I completely agree with everything on your list. All the very best to you man.
09/26/2012 02:58 PMPosted by NewSunshine
He isn't whining


Yes he is...

Actually, he is doing more than whining; he is ragequitting.

@SUPEROUMAN

While I disagree with your reasons, they are your opinion and I can respect that. You are a great mapmaker and your skills will be missed.

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