[Beta] [Suggestion] HotS - FIX PROTOSS:

Protoss Discussion
I'm a top master player with much experience in SC2 (and BW). If you look at my profile, you will see I've played SC2 WoL extensively (1v1, hundreds of team games in 2's/3's/4's at the top level, many FFA games, etc). Although I play random mostly, I choose to play Protoss in 1's because of the creative strategy-use. BUT I feel Protoss is weak in many ways with inherent flaws (because of certain units and core mechanics). Here are some proposed >REALISTIC< changes I think should be looked at in HotS:

Zealot

  • Increase hp/shields slightly (10 extra shields) OR give it 0.1 base speed increase - it does so little early on when it is the most expensive unit

Sentry

  • Hallucination is a 50/50 upgrade off Core - free is too much

Stalker

  • Increase base damage by 2-4 (does not change upgrade bonus)
  • REMOVE the attack delay when stalkers are being microed (ie: when running from a unit and turning to attack after CD, the attack is INSTANT) – this change does NOT affect the dps or cooldown
  • These two changes will fix the unit (where it is not good enough early game – especially when microing vs slow marines/roaches, and does not noticeably change the unit later on)

Phoenix

  • Add AOE to the Phoenix attack
  • Remove Anion Pulse-Crystals (range upgrade) for another upgrade that is more useful (a type of Disruption Web that works on 1 unit/structure for example)

Tempest

  • Fix the role to be an anti-massive, anti-turtle, anti-building, cheap, long range, mid-late game unit (ALSO has a minor harassment role when by itself with an Obs/Oracle to kill workers/units at long range)
  • COUNTERS: Brood Lords, Infestors, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, Battle Cruisers, Siege Tanks, Colossus, Carrier, Mass Bunker/Turret/Spine/Spore/Cannon
  • STATS: 14+ Range, 150mineral/250gas (LIKE THE REVERSE OF VR), 3 supply, 60 build time, 2.25 speed, 100 shields/150hp, 30 damage, +35-50 to Massive with the Quantic Reactor upgrade - upgrade turns the unit from a harassment one earlier on to a late game counter
  • Should share resemblance to a Void Ray with similar stats/appearance – because they are both dark templar ships, small/quicker with a special role - though not in main army)

Void Ray

  • Add Flux Vanes upgrade to Fleet Beacon to give Void Ray a role late game (quick late game raider to quickly dispose of buildings and massive units, but not necessarily good in main army)
  • Add a ‘Void Siphon’ ability that is an alternate attack to be switched that drains minerals for much lower dps (good suggestion from: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794711052 ) which works in conjunction with the role of late game raider
  • No other changes needed.

Carrier

  • Increase Carrier base armor by 1-2 (NOT the interceptor)
  • Reduce Carrier build time by 10-20s (such as a total of 105s)
  • Improve AI of the unit to allow for better micro
  • Interceptor regeneration (when returned to Carrier) / true dps looked at?

Mothership

  • REMOVE VORTEX for Stasis Field which has a small radius (good suggestion from: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794833413 )
  • Immunity to Neural Parasite (NOTHING BUT THE PROTOSS SHOULD BE ABLE TO EVER CONTROL THIS SUPER ADVANCED, POWERFUL, CAPITAL SHIP) – these 2 changes WILL fix the gimmicks of this unit
  • Increase DPS slightly (8 per shot)
  • MC: Do not let this unit come out until after Core (with a somewhat long build time from Nexus), When using Purify, MC attaches to the Nexus (and doesn’t grant detection)

Oracle

  • Remove Void Siphon
  • Keep Entomb
  • Detection on this unit (from Pre-Ordain) is much better than Purify on MC to keep strategy in the game (like DTs, cloak Banshees, etc would still have use)
Other changes:

Gateway vs Warp Gate

  • Reduce the change time of a Gateway to Warp Gate (and vice-versa) by 5 seconds
  • Since early game zealots have some balance issues, allow the Warp Gate research to reduce Gateway train times, as well as allow Warp Gate
  • Pre-Upgrade Gateway build times: Zealot - 35-37s, Sentry - 37s, Stalker - 42s
  • Post-Upgrade Gateway build times: Zealot - 25-27s, Sentry - 32s, Stalker - 32s
  • Warp Gate build times: Zealot - 30-32s, Sentry - 37s, Stalker - 37s
  • ALLOW WARP-IN ON HIGH GROUND - removing just takes away strategy

Chrono Boost

  • Improve Chrono Boost on what it can be applied to
  • Or add a cheap (50/50) upgrade to improve Chrono Boost (such as on Core/Fleet Beacon)


Reserved for other changes.

Past thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573157665
If you agree with me on some of these ideas, and think Blizzard developers should look into it, please post here and/or share it.

Currently, I can not post on the HotS beta forum - if someone could help with that, it would be appreciated.
I agree with you and I like it. I'll post it to some of my friends and some people :D , these balance things are fking right.
I agree with you and I like it. I'll post it to some of my friends and some people :D
:D
Also, I forgot to link to this thread - http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6794032960

I agree with the Protoss identity lacking, BUT I do NOT agree with most of his changes - many which would be absurd/imbalanced/unrealistic/useless. These changes do not consider the dynamics of the game and come at a low level.
I like the Tempest in that anti BL Infestor role
I think the proper way for Blizzard to balance out Warp Gate units is to buff the Gateway units while increasing the Cooldown for Warp Gates. Of course, Proxy Gates will raise in popularity so it may not be a bad idea to keep the Zealot Cooldown time the same while increasing its Gateway Build time.
I'm not in the beta, but reading about the Oracle I think a tech procession for the unit would allow to cover up holes in certain aspects of Protoss tech choices.

For Zerg, the tech progresses from hatchery to lair to hive. I wonder why the mothership core shouldn't be able to transform and progress in tech in a similar way.
I think it would be interesting to have transformations available depending on which tech the Protoss player opts to go for.
For instance, if the Protoss player opts to go twilight tech first, the Mothership Core could transform, at a cost, to a unit that has detection, but no anti-ground attack. Or, if going for robotics tech, the Mothership Core could transform into an even more powerful defensive cannon that would help compensate for the immobility of Robotics and the inability for them to leave their base. Or, with stargate tech, the mothership core would allow for different recall options that can abuse the sight vision of stargate or compensate for the fragility of a Protoss army against Fungal Growth/speedy hydras.

Just some thoughts, I think it would diversify the unit and allow for more interesting Protoss play.
I love most of the suggests save for things like the ms core (i like the firs original version) otherwise they're perfect.

My people have commented about that a change in warp workings is needed and I think the best things to do would be to add a warpfield to nexus, mothership, and prisms, then decrease gateway unit build timing. The main thing too would be to take away warpfields from normal pylons and instead allow any normal pylon to be upgraded to a dark pylon/monolyth for a small cost like 50min/gas and build time that adds a large warpfield to the new pylon. It would help alot with defenders advantage and could even allow things like hts amulet to return seeing as proxy pylons would be a bigger investment.
My people have commented about that a change in warp workings is needed and I think the best things to do would be to add a warpfield to nexus, mothership, and prisms, then decrease gateway unit build timing. The main thing too would be to take away warpfields from normal pylons and instead allow any normal pylon to be upgraded to a dark pylon/monolyth for a small cost like 50min/gas and build time that adds a large warpfield to the new pylon. It would help alot with defenders advantage and could even allow things like hts amulet to return seeing as proxy pylons would be a bigger investment.
Changing where you can warp-in is possible, but I don't think it is necessarily a good idea. All that is needed is to reduce Gateway train times over Warp Gate.
I think lower levels would have a huge problem with mass pheo if they had AOE.
I think lower levels would have a huge problem with mass pheo if they had AOE.
The AOE attack would really only make Phoenix stronger in 1 situation - vs mass Muta/Phoenix (and would also fix massing more Phoenix to counter Phoenix armies).
Zealot

Increase hp/shields slightly (10 extra shields) OR give it 0.1 base speed increase - it does so little early on when it is the most expensive unit

Zealots do 16 damage or 8 times 2 and have 100 health and 50 shields. 150 health all together. Buffing the zealot will buff many protoss all ins as well. I think it is a bit unnecessary and to avoid any imbalance of x gate pressure I don't really like this buff.

Sentry

Hallucination is a 50/50 upgrade off Core - free is too much

Reasonable but protoss player won't be able to get it early on before warp gates. Still quite reasonable.

Stalker

Increase base damage by 2-4 (does not change upgrade bonus)
REMOVE the attack delay when stalkers are being microed (ie: when running from a unit and turning to attack after CD, the attack is INSTANT) – this change does NOT affect the dps or cooldown
These two changes will fix the unit (where it is not good enough early game – especially when microing vs slow marines/roaches, and does not noticeably change the unit later on)

Increase base damage will buff x gate pressure. Stalker delay between attacks removed will make stalkers a bit too strong in the early game. In a matter of fact stalkers don't lag behind early game. They are quite good due to their tanky attributes and long range and speed. The only flaw is their build time. It is hard to buff the stalker by pure numbers due to their abusage and some blink timings protoss can do.

Phoenix

Add AOE to the Phoenix attack
Remove Anion Pulse-Crystals (range upgrade) for another upgrade that is more useful (a type of Disruption Web that works on 1 unit/structure for example)

Don't know where the aoe came from. I prefer the phoenix to be a air superior unit than a harasser. Anion was a fun upgrade and will benefit sky toss in hots. Out of curiosity what is a disruption web?
Buffing the zealot will buff many protoss all ins as well. I think it is a bit unnecessary and to avoid any imbalance of x gate pressure I don't really like this buff.
Stalker delay between attacks removed will make stalkers a bit too strong in the early game. In a matter of fact stalkers don't lag behind early game. They are quite good due to their tanky attributes and long range and speed.
Protoss units SHOULD be the strongest in small numbers (similar to BW). They are the most costly for a reason. BUT based on their attack - they will slowly become worse as the numbers increase unlike bio ranged units which slowly become better with more. That is how the game should work out.

That is not the case though and just a few unupgraded Marines can easily beat a Zealot or Stalker, taking little to no damage. In the open, a Stalker should be able to micro indefinitely vs slow Marines without taking damage, but you can't because of the attack delay. You must retreat when shields are low (and if there are 6+ Marines, you only managed to get a few hits in). Roach + Ling is somehow more cost efficient than Stalker + Zealot. My suggestions are only to improve Gateway units early where they do lack as they are quite weak/cost inefficient.

Don't know where the aoe came from. I prefer the phoenix to be a air superior unit than a harasser. Anion was a fun upgrade and will benefit sky toss in hots. Out of curiosity what is a disruption web?
Your second sentence tells you the answer to the first. The AOE to the attack is to fit its role much better - countering light air units. The range upgrade for the Phoenix has really only one use in countering Muta, which it doesn't do well (mass Muta + Fungal will beat a Phoenix army in big numbers) and doesn't complement the range of the Graviton Beam. That is why AOE added to the Phoenix attack is the better solution.

Also, maybe you should play Brood War to understand how a real, complex game works out. The advice of lower levels should be weighted much less in the grand scheme of the game. You can always get better, but a dumbed down or imbalanced game at the top level means it won't last.
Protoss units SHOULD be the strongest in small numbers (similar to BW). They are the most costly for a reason. BUT based on their attack - they will slowly become worse as the numbers increase unlike bio ranged units which slowly become better with more. That is how the game should work out.

They are still strong in small numbers. But they are not the most cost efficient. While protoss only needs like 3 zealots and 2 sentries with 2 stalkers, terran must get a lot more marines or bunkers. Though they are equal in army protoss has less but stronger units. Which is why a zealot can 1v1 a unupgraded marine. There is a difference between numbers literally and numbers meaning cost efficient. But in terms lorewise of numbers bliz did their job. Bio does not get better once numbers go up. In fact they get weaker. As for protoss a force of chargelots, sentries, and blink stalkers is quite a strong army compared to stim shield concussive bio. For bio, once numbers go up the only way they can compete with protoss is through higher tech investments like ghosts, vikings, and more medivacs. Without tech support bio's only advantage later on is through replenishing and sacking scv supply advantage.
10/14/2012 01:56 PMPosted by Jaycee
Your second sentence tells you the answer to the first. The AOE to the attack is to fit its role much better - countering light air units. The range upgrade for the Phoenix has really only one use in countering Muta, which it doesn't do well (mass Muta + Fungal will beat a Phoenix army in big numbers) and doesn't complement the range of the Graviton Beam. That is why AOE added to the Phoenix attack is the better solution.

Even then I think aoe should be an upgrade. Having phoenixes as aoe by default is quite strong. Any protoss player can just tech switch to phoenix quickly with little investment and still get the benefits of air dominance with speed and splash.

Even if aoe was an upgrade its splash should be as little as an archon. If the splash is equivalent to a thor my gosh. Even corrupters will die (which is mind blowing since corrupters, a armored tanky unit gets killed by a anti light fighter).

Aion won't help grav beam but it does help in air combat. Grav beam is already quite good. It has potent to lift units like tanks/immortals/swarmhosts and even spellcastors. Due to many new hots air units (hence the oracle, viper, tempest) I think the 6 range will suit the phoenix better than a little splash. Players who go mutas can be easily holded off with archons (templars support stargate quite well) and stalkers.

I think splash for the phoenix is a bit more of a harsh buff since what are you planing to do with it besides mass mutas. It will help phoenix vs phoenix in pvp but that matter is not too much of a big deal since the players with less phoenixes can just get a few supporting cannons or a mothership core. A bit unnecessary.
agreed and while we are at it lets fix terran also!
lets make marines have the classic range upgrade again
+1 range to marines
also improve the AI so now they can auto stutter step and auto split
siege tanks can now 1 shot any light unit so that way the shield on zealots dont matter :D
ghost emp radius should be increased 3
raven should start with 200 energy
and thors shouldn't have energy and the cannon is on a cooldown and they can shoot while doing it
hellions/hell bats are now Armored
banshee/ghost no longer require cloack research because they now are perma cloaked
reaper should now get changed to Beta WOL reaper and always fire the grenade at buildings and units
i put alot of time and effort into thinking about these changes like OP (original post)
DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP HERP A DERP A DEEE DOO DEERP
agreed and while we are at it lets fix terran also!
lets make marines have the classic range upgrade again
+1 range to marines
also improve the AI so now they can auto stutter step and auto split
siege tanks can now 1 shot any light unit so that way the shield on zealots dont matter :D
ghost emp radius should be increased 3
raven should start with 200 energy
and thors shouldn't have energy and the cannon is on a cooldown and they can shoot while doing it
hellions/hell bats are now Armored
banshee/ghost no longer require cloack research because they now are perma cloaked
reaper should now get changed to Beta WOL reaper and always fire the grenade at buildings and units
i put alot of time and effort into thinking about these changes like OP (original post)
See this is why you're not masters. You can't even address areas where Terran could be worked on. Instead, you attribute your lack of skill/knowledge to racial imbalance. My suggestions don't come from a bias. I don't want Protoss to be OP and these changes are not strengthening already strong things.

DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP HERP A DERP A DEEE DOO DEERP
lol.

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