So who said Ravens are bad?

Terran Discussion
10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Auto-Turrets are free DPS.

infested terrans can do better

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Auto-Turrets can be used as a force-field in some cases.

bad priority

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
PDDs block almost all ranged attacks.

but fungal and feedback. helps though vs corrupters but...

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Seeker Missiles one-shot large groups of most clumped units.

it will take 2 or more

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Auto-Turrets and Seeker Missiles can be used as effective worker harass.

more expensive as the tempest

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Ravens are mobile detection.

true

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Ravens do not require an air attack upgrade. (Works well with bio accompanied by medivacs.)

but has a lot of default upgrades that cannot be shared with the army

10/22/2012 06:51 PMPosted by Amzinoji
Two upgrades used by Ravens are also used by buildings. (PF wall please?)

the important upgrades don't share

They are flying spellcasters.

with 7 range

ravens are good. but they are a lot harder to use than other late game spellcastors and they are a lot slower.
we cant make ravens as fast as you can make infestors, you see we dont have larva, I cant make 15 ravens at a time from 2 starports
10/28/2012 07:42 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
with 7 range
HSM is 6 range, not 7 range. The rest of your post I agree with.

10/28/2012 10:43 PMPosted by Zerglor
we cant make ravens as fast as you can make infestors, you see we dont have larva, I cant make 15 ravens at a time from 2 starports
It's more that when you want to transition into a lot of Ravens, you need to get a lot of different upgrades to back it up, which leaves you vulnerable unless you have plenty of defenders advantage with PF's and Tanks, or you are ahead enough that getting Ravens to help close out the game is only a formality.
I use Ravens in TvP and TvZ. The only buff I would suggest for them is higher casting range for HSM.

Otherwise they ROCK!!!
lol. They're flying infestors with Detection...
The only real difference is they don't have and AoE DoT... instead they have a missile that does not miss and does 100 splash damage...

I have a challenge for you Terran players: use the Raven like it's the, like Zerg players use their Infestor, in you late game army... I PROMISE good results.

Ravens are a lot harder to use. Unless pdd can use 50 energy to block spells like fungal and feedback, there is no way ravens can do anything with 7 range spells vs well placed infestors/fungal. The best way ravens can work is if ghosts are made to cancel out spellcastors. Even then that is a huge investment in both ravens/ghosts plus a basic army to go with it. The only problem with ghost raven is upgrades. Raven upgrades are meh. Just armor basically if you go seeker. But in order to use ghosts 3-3 your ground force must be bio. Bcs may come but not until 5-6 bases.

Different from broodlord infestor. Infestors does not need upgrades besides from armor. But armor is already researched by default for lings and ultras. Broodlord broodlings also benefit from ground upgrades. For zerg their upgrades work a lot more in sync. Ravens are viable but is harder to use. Transitioning to ravens is like transitioning to broodlords. You must buy yourself a lot of time and resources.

A lot harder than infestors.


idk what ur talking about infestors can't harass unless the enemies are blind/ don't have detection and even then it's rarely as deadly as a raven spamming 6 turrets in a mineral line.
Also ravens are easier to use then infestors cause they're flying so it's easier to position and they're faster not to mention they have more durability.
It's nothing like translating to broodlords, bio ball which most terrans go has a huge supply of left over gas and chances are ur gonna build an early factory anyways for armory to unlock t2 and 3 upgrades. and you don't need a hundred ravens u just need 3-4 to destroy most small armies.

idk what ur talking about infestors can't harass unless the enemies are blind/ don't have detection and even then it's rarely as deadly as a raven spamming 6 turrets in a mineral line.
Also ravens are easier to use then infestors cause they're flying so it's easier to position and they're faster not to mention they have more durability.
It's nothing like translating to broodlords, bio ball which most terrans go has a huge supply of left over gas and chances are ur gonna build an early factory anyways for armory to unlock t2 and 3 upgrades. and you don't need a hundred ravens u just need 3-4 to destroy most small armies.


A full energy raven can only put down 4 turrets. Also, have one worker stand under where the turret was supposed to go and the raven doesn't drop it, a problem that's not there with infested terrans (I think). Don't infested terrans benefit from zerg army upgrades? Turrets don't, though they do upgrade with the building armor.

Even Blizzard says that ravens are hard to micro, because they noticed that even the pros had trouble (see the Call to Action: Balance testing for 1.5.3). Even though they are flying, they don't burrow, and they don't get a speed bonus on creep like infestors.

By the time ravens are actually useful (after researching HSM, getting enough energy, and maybe even the building armor and range upgrade), chances are we're not dealing with small armies anymore. HSM is strong, but you can micro before and after its launched to lower the damage done. You can prevent lots of damage from fungal before it hits your army with splitting, but after it hits you there's nothing left to do but ride it out.
you have to remember that 1 fungal silences your ravens, fungal has a range of 9 while hunter seeker has a range of 6.

also feedback has a range of 10
10/29/2012 12:18 AMPosted by Fencar
HSM is 6 range, not 7 range. The rest of your post I agree with.

whoops
you have to remember that 1 fungal silences your ravens, fungal has a range of 9 while hunter seeker has a range of 6.

also feedback has a range of 10

Without emp (get ghosts though anyways) you can use 2+ control groups of ravens. If 1 group gets fungaled your other group can still attempt to hsm the infestors.

Idea for a buff...
Give ravens an upgrade that increases the range of auto turrets and the cast range of all of the raven's spells. Found on the fusion core if this becomes imbalanced.

Another Idea is to make auto turrets air. Make them float in the air like pdd so pathing can be better arranged.
you have to remember that 1 fungal silences your ravens, fungal has a range of 9 while hunter seeker has a range of 6.

also feedback has a range of 10

Without emp (get ghosts though anyways) you can use 2+ control groups of ravens. If 1 group gets fungaled your other group can still attempt to hsm the infestors.

Idea for a buff...
Give ravens an upgrade that increases the range of auto turrets and the cast range of all of the raven's spells. Found on the fusion core if this becomes imbalanced.

Another Idea is to make auto turrets air. Make them float in the air like pdd so pathing can be better arranged.


thats still a 3 range gap you have to close before they use their 75 energy spell on you.
I'd say the problem with seeker missile is the suicidal nature of the spell.
6 range for a radius 2 ability really doesn't leave a very large margin for error.

Ravens really need a bit of a speed buff or a + 1 range buff to seeker missiles. They're one of my favorite units but have a few problems:

Prohibitively expensive
Unusable against Protoss once high templars come out
Auto turret is one of the worst scaling spells in the game (It starts off okay to good if you can get all the upgrades but goes from bad to worse past + 1 unit upgrades.)
Seeker Missile is 125 energy for a spell roughly as powerful as storm or fungal growth
Seeker Missiles have an anemic 6 range.
Terrible rate of production.

Auto turrets should be scaling with either vehicle or air upgrades (at least in terms of damage).
Seeker Missiles should be 7 range considering their exorbitant costs.
Ravens either need a faster top speed or better acceleration.
I feel that the only reason why people don't use ravens as much as we see people use HTs or Infestors is that because their first 2 spells are really really useless during the middle parts of the game. But if you can survive with a stable economy going for like 20-30 minutes in game, Ravens BC is basically the Terran equivalent of the feared Infestor Broodlord unit composition, only potentially 5 times stronger as well as practically 20 times more expensive.
I SAID RAVENS ARE BAD

costs a stupid amount of gas for what it is capable of? CHECK!
effectively countered by casters that cost less and are more prevalent than ravens? CHECK!
costs more time to get to than is worth and allows for your opponent to make a comeback during that time? CHECK!
comes out of the highest tech production facility for terran and requires a techlab as well as a full minute build time each? CHECK!
totally different set of upgrades than bio/tank? CHECK!
tons of miscellaneous upgrades that cost way more than they're worth? CHECK!
slow movement speed? CHECK!
the first thing that gets feedbacked/empd/fungaled at a decent level of play? CHECK!
long waiting time in between starting raven production and being able to use seeker missile? CHECK!
seeker missile can be dodged? CHECK!
low hp units that cost 200 gas to repair fully? CHECK! (140 hp. 200 gas 100 min to repair fully, say a raven is targeted down to 15 hp. you will spend around 180 gas repairing it to full (more than 1gas per hp btw), or you will have a 2 dead supply floating around with 15 hp

reasons they're working on ours and a pro level currently:
zergs and protoss are horrible, do not adapt to things terrans do well
they do not split they're units because they dont have to,
they never hit their fungals to trap ravens or NINE range feedbacks on ravens
ravens have 200 energy and 140 life, one feedback klils them INSTANTLY, feedback and fungal growth both outrange and own ravens. ravens take bonus damage from vikings, stalkers, infestors. lmfao

how could this unit be any worse? just make more siege tanks and try to not suck !@#, thats' pretty much the terran meta, ravens were a fad

after watching bomber be up 5 bases to one vs NSH Freaky and him come back with pure $%^-ing infestors, i can never use ravens again and think "i won this because this unit is good and i made a good choice in making it"
its more like "damn he had 15 full energy inestors he wasn't watching, why do baddies like this get ranked so high?"
lol. They're flying infestors with Detection...
The only real difference is they don't have and AoE DoT... instead they have a missile that does not miss and does 100 splash damage...

I have a challenge for you Terran players: use the Raven like it's the, like Zerg players use their Infestor, in you late game army... I PROMISE good results.


Oh I c, a zerg crafter, they think that all the caster are unbetables vs all how lilke Infestors.}

Poor dude he should view the game gide to c the reality.
I SAID RAVENS ARE BAD

costs a stupid amount of gas for what it is capable of? CHECK!
effectively countered by casters that cost less and are more prevalent than ravens? CHECK!
costs more time to get to than is worth and allows for your opponent to make a comeback during that time? CHECK!


Most true
lol ok then why doncha tell us where we can get that extra gas without cutting into our mech productions

and how zergs above diamond would be retarded enough to let the seekers hit them without triyng to run and split

and how ravens need to basically go point blanc range to have a chance of hitting the target

and how ravens to splash damage to friendly units while fungal growth doesnt
lol ok then why doncha tell us where we can get that extra gas without cutting into our mech productions

and how zergs above diamond would be retarded enough to let the seekers hit them without triyng to run and split

and how ravens need to basically go point blanc range to have a chance of hitting the target

and how ravens to splash damage to friendly units while fungal growth doesnt


ask flash, he is using them

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