[HOTS]NydusWorm Buff

Zerg Discussion
Similar to the Hydra imo the nydus worm is quite badly designed.

Reasons why... too powerful...
A nydus worm can...
1. Have unlimited capacity.
2. Instant travel.
3. Instant retreat.
4. Transport entire armies... aka potent to be game ending.
5. Flexible... units from worm A can pop out from worm B.
Because of that Blizzard must balance them by...
1. Slow 1 by 1 unload
2. Slow 1 by 1 pick up
3. Bladhdsbvjksbhvb!!! (hi please kill me now since I just unburrowed into one of your bases)
4. Slow set up time
5. Expensive tech

If we were to buff the nydus worm by pure numbers like more health or less cost, they will still have the same problems as before or they would become ridiculously op and game ending. There is no way to buff them in the middle through THIS method.

However...

Different Changes...
1. Nydus worms now costs 150 minerals.
2. Nydus prep time decreased.
3. Nydus network prep time decreased and cost decreased by a little bit (no more than 50).
4. Nydus Worms are now like interceptors. You build them from the Network before placing. (Different build time. The nydus worm will still have to prep when officially placed.)
5. Each Nydus Network can support up to 1 Worm at a time. Deployed worms count.
6. Nydus Capacity decreased... still a lot (1.25 hercules drop ships) but not "infinite".
7. Nydus worms can now just cancel without losing the worm. While preping a worm all you have to do is press cancel, wait for x sec, and it will submerge back underground to be placed differently. Already emerged worms can only be submerged by paying 100 minerals and by waiting for a set time.
8. Nydus networks can now be upgraded (separately kinda like orbitals) to unload troops and pick up troops at a faster rate. Costs 50-50. Short build time except the worm cannot have any loaded units and remains inactive till the upgrade is done. Once the network is upgraded all future nydus worms connected to this network will benefit from this upgrade.
9. If the network is destroyed the nydus worm connecting to the network is destroyed. DEFEND THE NETWORKS.

Reasons for change...
1. 150min nydus and no gas will make nydus worms more expendable.
2. No more "infinite" capacity since it is unnecessary and overpowered at the same time.
3. Only 1 worm per nydus to prevent the spaming of worms for not counter attacking but for just more mobility. This is also why nydus worms have a separate build time.
4. Unload troops at a faster rate to promote more counterattacking rather than stuff all your army and try to win method of our current worms.

Through these changes I would like for zerg players to treat nydus worms as expendable and more of a strike force rather than a stuff em ultras worm. This nydus worm will promote more aggressive play and less hive deathballs. This is also more zergy. Worms, burrowing, swarming.

Thoughts? (side note I have a beta key but I am posting here since nydus worms are wol)

Hydra thread: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7004698064
My hydra thread is going smooth. Thanks for all of the discussion. Now...

Any thoughts for the nydus? Anyone... ?
I don't like your changes, and the Nydus is pretty great so far. It adds another layer of complexity and requires timing.
You forgot to mention the part where all of the units in the worm die if the entrance is destroyed. Or how the announcer tells you exactly when an enemy nydus worm has surfaced. Or how nydus networks are only useful for pumping units right next to, or behind an enemy base. Or how it's more effective, both cost and gameplay wise, to spread creep tumors and move your units over it.
they were supposed to gets some love in hots but blizz decided to either abandon it or wait. I feel like zergs losing all its harass options quickly. Mutas are shut down for the most part . run bys are becomeing less and less likely to succeed. Terrans have multiple units that will own entire flocks of mutas or lings now with one or 2 shots with the super cheap widow mines and battle hellions. Protoss forcefield already makes runbys happen less and less till its non existent. Timewarp will make all zerg harassment go boom combineed with storms and/or archons. Aoe is gonna wreck us bad for harassment in a single shot.

*praying the raptorling makes it into multiplayer as a possible upgrade
11/16/2012 03:08 AMPosted by Majere
I don't like your changes, and the Nydus is pretty great so far. It adds another layer of complexity and requires timing.

Well then why don't pros use them more? Nydus takes role as an unorthodox variable in most games.
11/17/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Brigade
You forgot to mention the part where all of the units in the worm die if the entrance is destroyed. Or how the announcer tells you exactly when an enemy nydus worm has surfaced. Or how nydus networks are only useful for pumping units right next to, or behind an enemy base. Or how it's more effective, both cost and gameplay wise, to spread creep tumors and move your units over it.

Well when medivacs die, all loaded units die in the process. The announced nydus is just to warn you that you are about to get overrun. It is to prevent nydus from becoming too game ending. Nydus does have potent when it comes to taking out production.

The problem with the nydus is that it is too game ending and has too much potent. Which is why it was quite weak in the crude process of balancing it.
they were supposed to gets some love in hots but blizz decided to either abandon it or wait. I feel like zergs losing all its harass options quickly. Mutas are shut down for the most part . run bys are becomeing less and less likely to succeed. Terrans have multiple units that will own entire flocks of mutas or lings now with one or 2 shots with the super cheap widow mines and battle hellions. Protoss forcefield already makes runbys happen less and less till its non existent. Timewarp will make all zerg harassment go boom combineed with storms and/or archons. Aoe is gonna wreck us bad for harassment in a single shot.

*praying the raptorling makes it into multiplayer as a possible upgrade

Mutas are fine. They deal damage. When you say they "get shut down" it just means that mutas are no longer game ending like back when zvp meta was mass muta base trade. Runbys still occur. Know that sentries are immobile. You can still abuse mobility despite ff to force protoss on 2 bases. Time warp is end game. Battle hellions are immobile. Widow mines need to be treated with caution. When done correctly you can send 1 muta at a time to netralize mines or just use overlords/seers to spot/suicide with mines and run your mutas in. Widow mines are the most immobile unit. The trouble is that they cannot be seen and requires the player to cross fingers when mines hit the field.

Zerg harassment is not lost. I think your concern is that zerg has no aggressive strategy to go for like the terran's apm glorious bio-mech. Part of this is because infestor broodlord is too slow and too strong.

I do not think the raptor will hit the ladder. It will become impossible to prevent not to mention lings and an upgrade is not much of an investment.
11/17/2012 06:07 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
You forgot to mention the part where all of the units in the worm die if the entrance is destroyed. Or how the announcer tells you exactly when an enemy nydus worm has surfaced. Or how nydus networks are only useful for pumping units right next to, or behind an enemy base. Or how it's more effective, both cost and gameplay wise, to spread creep tumors and move your units over it.

Well when medivacs die, all loaded units die in the process. The announced nydus is just to warn you that you are about to get overrun. It is to prevent nydus from becoming too game ending. Nydus does have potent when it comes to taking out production.

The problem with the nydus is that it is too game ending and has too much potent. Which is why it was quite weak in the crude process of balancing it.
It's only a game ender if you're really slow, a Queen, or some drones can take out a Nydus before it emerges, which may be why the pros don't use them.

If you couldn't hear them they would be a definite game ender.
It's only a game ender if you're really slow, a Queen, or some drones can take out a Nydus before it emerges, which may be why the pros don't use them.

If you couldn't hear them they would be a definite game ender.

Well yes workers can kill nydus. I was saying that if a nydus actually pops out it is quite game ending. Because of that bliz have to put ridiculous things to it like a long prep time, huge investment, and a huge nfbnwfnjfb scream. Kinda sucks...
Don't let it pop out - you could say the same thing about a Terran or a Toss air drop - I've ended many a game with both, and harder to counter than a Nydus because you don't hear it coming.
11/17/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Chuck
Don't let it pop out - you could say the same thing about a Terran or a Toss air drop - I've ended many a game with both, and harder to counter than a Nydus because you don't hear it coming.

Terran drops have a capacity limit and protoss drops requires a warp of reinforcements. Nydus can bring your entire ultra infestor army to their base and back in less than a min. That is why nydus worms are game ending and hard to balance. We really need to set a capacity cap on it.
nydus drops are slow... If you attack the worm the instant it pops I will get like 3 units out.

I think it's about 3 seconds a unit maybe 2.5.... Pretty slow :(

Marines come out of a medivac much faster then zerglings out of a nydus.
Your wrong, nydus worms do not provide instant retreat they load unit and let out a unit one at a time and during this time bio or stalkers can easily snipe the worm and all your units are left to die. And besides if anything nydus worms need a BUFF not a NERF, if your gonna continue to make bad posts like these just stop posting please.
nydus worms need a BUFF not a NERF.


This.

The enemy can land an army without warning, why do the Zerg can't?

Oh wait I know. Terrans and Protoss would find Zerg challenging. And THAT would not be fair to them. Especially the Protoss, they do deserve special treatment.

-----

Creep should slowly regenerate zerg units. That would be very nice and fair.
for all the complaining about terran and protoss drops, people forget that zerg has the capability to drop as well. sure it costs 300/300 to make it viable, but after that it is no cost since we all ready build the overlords for supply.

as far as nydus worms are concerned, I feel that they are currently underpowered. the ability to be killed by workers before they can pop out is horrible. as far as the scream of when it pops out, yeah it has its bad points, but it has its good points.

the good point is that they hear it, every time, no matter where it is. they are just about to move out to attack? build a nydus worm somewhere on the map that they cant see, and watch them pull back and scramble to find it, even if it isnt in their base. psycological warfare ftw.

there is two things that I would love to see for nydus worms. one, is that they get a substantial armor bonus while they are burrowing. after all, something under the ground shouldny be so easy to kill, right? then once they are out they lose it, so it is back to normal

second, the ability to retract the worm once the attack is finished, that way you can redeploy it somewhere else.

I have been trying to use nydus worms myself, and it is rather difficult. in order to make sure that they can actually break through before they die, i need to build 2 or 3 at a time, which is a huge investement for an attempt that can fail. say 3 nydus worms, all at the same time to optimize chance for success. thats 450/600 for the networks themselves, plus 300/300 for the attempted attack, so a total of 750/900 for an attempt that can easilly be shut down, which is horrible.
1 Nydus per Network will Never work even if they require no gas because that means the Network + Worm is 300 Minerals. Make it unlimited Worms however you can only stack 3 pre-built at once.
11/17/2012 06:14 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
*praying the raptorling makes it into multiplayer as a possible upgrade


Yes! I think the Zerg are the one race that DOESN'T have a cliff-hopper. It'd be nice to see this.

The Nydus worm is fine as it is. Pop worms out all over the map, and you've got map control, extra creep spread and zippy unit transport.

Plus, hearing all the screams psyches several of my opponents out, especially if they can't see where I'm dropping them (Silver - I'm sure this doesn't work as well in the later leagues)

Creep should slowly regenerate zerg units. That would be very nice and fair


It should be like it was in SC1 and BW: Zerg units constantly regenerate, but it's faster when on creep.

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