[HOTS]Repost: Hydra Buff

Zerg Discussion
I say keep the Hydra at Lair tech and make Ultra upgrades ie.. Burrow charge to Hydras and Chitinous Plating to Roaches making Roach Hydra viable in late game Hive tech Hydra speed also stays in Hive tech
I think if I had to pick one, it would be speed, the damn things are way too slow.

They're the only real practical early AA, Muta take too long, and they need to be fast enough to chase down Rays and Banshee, but chasing Banshee around - and those things are pretty damn slow, is like freaking keystone cops.


Infestors anyone? Anyone? There's your anti air. Enjoy.

Speed is a big concern but for hydras speed won't make them viable. Even with speed they still die to colossi and tanks/marines. Speed does allow hydras to form a better arc but I prefer my burrow speed just to promote aggressive play and less hive deathballs. With speed hydras can also join the corrupted broodlord infestor club. Plus burrowed units will promote more ravens and oracles to respond.
I get that you love infestors, but my point is getting faster AA - if hydras are slow, infested Terrans practically stand still - all you have to do is move out of range, and wait for them to pop, repeat until they're out of energy.

Hydras are the quickest practical AA you can get, but micro with them is a nightmare because they're so slow, you can't retreat from ground, you can't chase air, or run up under them like you can with stimpacks or blinkers.

Muta make up for this somewhat, but there is a good minute difference between getting hydras and getting Muta, and a Ray, Banshee or even a Phoenix rush can mess up your day in that minute.

I wouldn't say it's a huge imbalance, Banshee or Muta will kill them if there are fewer than 5 or 6, but the Zerg are very vulnerable to any kind of early air rush, spore crawlers are your only option, but relatively weak and not very versatile, more of a scare tactic that is only marginally effective at best against any determined opponent, and hydras are at big disadvantage when it comes to off creep micro IMO.

Yes, they die from tanks, just like Stalkers and Marines, tanks are supposed to counter large numbers of ground, but they die much more certainly because they can't retreat fast enough. Tanks aren't the thing either, HT's and colossus will evaporate ground just as fast - for a while there I just quit going ground altogether past a handful of roaches against an early ground rush, and that sucks because I like going ground, I think it's a more nuanced game, taking terrain, visibility, and micro into account.

I'm just saying a little more off creep speed would be nice so I'm not running up and down the ramp and around obstacles trying to protect my main and my expo from an air rush, or slugging it out with heavy ground because retreating is not an option.

Infestors do make up for that, but as far as I can tell they're mainly good at scaring air off - I don't want to scare it off, I want to kill it.
How about HK mutation like in the original SC, bigger, harder, stronger, faster, with resource and population debits.

I dunno, they're the only effective counter to mass rays, and pretty effective against stalker and roach, but if you run out of roach blockers, you better run and hope they don't chase.

I just transition to air usually, use my remaining ground for base defense, air for aggress, rather than make Five hatcheries to try and keep up, if it turns out they're owning me on the ground.
11/18/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Chuck
infested Terrans practically stand still - all you have to do is move out of range, and wait for them to pop, repeat until they're out of energy.

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Learn to fungal growth...

11/18/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Chuck
I get that you love infestors, but my point is getting faster AA

Zerg has queens and spores. Since zerg does not require a lot of buildings early on 1 spore with queens is enough to protect 1 mining base. Since terran and protoss can't afford to turret and cannon up all their gateways, barracks, factories, and such they must use stalkers and marines. Zerg already has pretty fast anti air. Queens and spores can hold you 3 bases till lair and infestors.

11/18/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Chuck
Hydras are the quickest practical AA you can get, but micro with them is a nightmare because they're so slow, you can't retreat from ground, you can't chase air, or run up under them like you can with stimpacks or blinkers.

Hydras are actually the slowest anti air to get. A hand pick few of infestors is more than enough to shut down a drop or banshee, voidray, mutas. Hydras however will require you to get a decent sized force of them until your mobile anti air is set. By the time you get range upgrade and enough hydras, an infestor with energy upgrades is much better and maybe even faster. Without range hydras will just get shuttered to death by banshees (heard of micro) and will also get picked up by phoenixes. At least fungal is 9 range so with good control the phoenixes won't even get close before getting chain fungaled.

11/18/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Chuck
Muta make up for this somewhat, but there is a good minute difference between getting hydras and getting Muta, and a Ray, Banshee or even a Phoenix rush can mess up your day in that minute.

Its called build infestors. Chain fungal everything. Mutas are good for harass if your scouting overlord sees no stargate play. There is no such thing as a phoenix rush. It is just a phoenix opening. Mutas are generally more used vs terran to push back any hellion banshee openers.
I wouldn't say it's a huge imbalance, Banshee or Muta will kill them if there are fewer than 5 or 6, but the Zerg are very vulnerable to any kind of early air rush, spore crawlers are your only option, but relatively weak and not very versatile, more of a scare tactic that is only marginally effective at best against any determined opponent, and hydras are at big disadvantage when it comes to off creep micro IMO.

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Zerg is the least vulnerable to air rushes. Heard of queens? Heard of spores? You will only need 1 spore per base to detect banshees (detection range is actually 10. attack range is 7) and to just drive out phoenixes (can't lift buildings). Queens can easily clean up any other air units. Plus queens won't put you back economically. First of all you will actually need the 4-5 queens by default if you want to get a third up fast and a good creep spread. Plus queens use up no larvae. All larvae can be saved for droning. Queens also use up no gas so all of the gas can be stockpiled for lair, defensive upgrades, and later tech. Win - win in any situation.

Yes, they die from tanks, just like Stalkers and Marines, tanks are supposed to counter large numbers of ground, but they die much more certainly because they can't retreat fast enough. Tanks aren't the thing either, HT's and colossus will evaporate ground just as fast - for a while there I just quit going ground altogether past a handful of roaches against an early ground rush, and that sucks because I like going ground, I think it's a more nuanced game, taking terrain, visibility, and micro into account.

Stalkers don't die from tanks. With blink they can just become annoying, abusing mobility and catching you in a bad position. Marines don't die either. With proper micro and stim marines are just moderately countered by tanks. Marines are very cheap so if any marines die... no problem. The reason why hydras get HARD HARD countered by tanks is because they have nothing to abuse. Stalkers and marines can do all sorts of counter attacks and force an unsiege in an attempt to defend. Hydras? You can even 1-a unsieged into them just to last min siege and still become cost efficient. Marines don't die too bad vs templars due to stop dodging. Hydras can't even shutter. Hydras get killed by tanks, marines, and protoss aoe even worse then other ground units like roaches or marines. You can still go ground as zerg. Ultra ling infestor. If you think "ultras are crappy" then your in the wrong meta game. No offense but zerg ground forces has minimal micro. Hydras are 1-a, roaches are 1-a, ultras are 1-a, banglings are 1-a, lings are split 1-a. If you like micro try terran though be warned that bio-mech is so apm intensive even diamond players can't handle it.

I'm just saying a little more off creep speed would be nice so I'm not running up and down the ramp and around obstacles trying to protect my main and my expo from an air rush, or slugging it out with heavy ground because retreating is not an option.

Your bases should be creep connected... learn your mechanics. Off creep speed looks like a good buff but that doesn't change anything. Hydras are still a 1-a free money to your opponent, unit. At least if they can move FASTER WHILE BURROWED it will promote counter attack strategies.
11/18/2012 06:08 PMPosted by Chuck
Infestors do make up for that, but as far as I can tell they're mainly good at scaring air off - I don't want to scare it off, I want to kill it.

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What is a chain fungal...
1. You use fungal growth (not infested terran).
2. You wait 4 sec.
3. Fungal again.
4. Repeat step 2 till all units in fungal dies.
Because units that are fungaled cannot move... they are in a great position for a refungal. There is nothing they can do but die. Fungal does more damage then you think.

No offense but do you really play zerg :P. You have a long way to go buddy (cough bronze cough no offense, we've all been there). Learn how to fungal and silver is a guarantee.
11/18/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Chuck
How about HK mutation like in the original SC, bigger, harder, stronger, faster, with resource and population debits.

More statistic buffs. All it will do is make hydras more 1-a friendly.

11/18/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Chuck
mass rays

Who does that. Team games? Just fungal...

11/18/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Chuck
pretty effective against stalker and roach

Blink stalkers beat hydras any day. So does roaches.

11/18/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Chuck
I just transition to air usually

good either that or ultras

11/18/2012 08:43 PMPosted by Chuck
air for aggress

Don't mass mutas. Go broodlords man. Learn to fungal, build broodlords, win.
@ chuck
Seems like you have been in bronze for a long while. Do you want to improve? Do you want to learn how to play better? Stop searching google. Here is a good video.

http://day9.tv/d/Day9/newbie-tuesday-zerg-leak-finder/

More videos from him
http://day9.tv/archives/

Epic game... zerg lost but it shows what epic terran vs zerg micro looks like, the importance of fungal, the importance of ultras, and just good overall game. Both players are top notch code s.
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/stephano-vs-taeja-from-dreamhack/

Starcraft is a fun game. Step up your game and join the meta game. Keep on watching any newbie Tuesday videos and some general zerg dailies from day9 and you will be set for silver.

How to play faster. Very important if you want to go beyond silver.

http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-252-secrets-of-hotkeys-apm-and-mouse-movement/
Who else thinks this is a good idea?
I like haste idea but make it so It dousnt need to work while burrowed, make it like rines stim but takes no health away.
11/19/2012 08:04 PMPosted by Risk
I like haste idea but make it so It dousnt need to work while burrowed, make it like rines stim but takes no health away.

Afraid that it will make hydras more 1-a then stealth ambushing. More aggressive the better for zerg right now.
11/19/2012 08:18 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
I like haste idea but make it so It dousnt need to work while burrowed, make it like rines stim but takes no health away.

Afraid that it will make hydras more 1-a then stealth ambushing. More aggressive the better for zerg right now.


Maybe do it my way but make it so after haste is used all hydras who used the abilitie speed is reduced by 30% for 10 seconds. Kinda of a burst idea.
11/17/2012 08:31 PMPosted by MappyTinfoil
Infestors anyone? Anyone? There's your anti air. Enjoy.


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I think Chuck meant non-energy using ground to air AA Mappy, like the AA attack of the queen. Also, gas efficiency would help.
11/19/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Risk
Maybe do it my way but make it so after haste is used all hydras who used the abilitie speed is reduced by 30% for 10 seconds. Kinda of a burst idea.

Like the idea of burst... but can't you just reburrow and "use" haste. Haste is not a spell. It is a perma ability. Hydras can move while burrowed. Hydras will also move faster when burrowed. Hydras have a longer unburrow time to execute an animation.

I think Chuck meant non-energy using ground to air AA Mappy, like the AA attack of the queen. Also, gas efficiency would help

Queens not good enough? Once the air really starts to stockpile, infestors are great. I don't think chuck is trying to explain non energy aa. Since he posted that "the air units will run away from the infested terrans and come back later" I assumed that he does not know what chain fungal was.
Not to set up a strawman, but. OP says buffing hydra stats will 1 do nothing or 2 make them op. This, given that the unit is a very simple unit, is ridiculous. There is always a happy median when stats are the only factor involved.
My idea is to buff Hydra HP by 20 and make them have grooved spines already reasearched and speed would be lair tech and Hydras would have a researchable ability that every other attack the Hydra would shoot out a spray of spines that could hit any uits near the original target. It would be Hive tech or would cost 200 mins and 200 gas. This is just something I brainstormerd so feel free to comment.
11/21/2012 02:10 AMPosted by Sunshine
Not to set up a strawman, but. OP says buffing hydra stats will 1 do nothing or 2 make them op. This, given that the unit is a very simple unit, is ridiculous. There is always a happy median when stats are the only factor involved.

Well there is no median.

Just look at the voidray...
Buff hp/shields... marines and any aoe will still wreck them.
Buff dps... marines and aoe will still wreck them.
Buff speed... improves counter attacking except capitol ships will still hit the field with no fear.

The problem with both the hydra and the voidray is that...
1. They are 1-a easy units. Even the colossus have more micro then hydras.
2. Generally no weakness. Hits both air and ground.
3. Expensive and too strong. Unlike the marine. Aoe? Who cares... press the a key...

Aka they are poorly designed. They have no role to fit. Nor can they do what they are supposed to do.

Look at the siege tank. It has a blind spot and lacks aa. But it is strong. Hydras? It has no weakness any so ever. Its just too all around and keeps getting out gunned. If we buff the hydra to be on par... Then every zerg player will go mass hydras because...

"Now that hydras trade evenly vs marines and aoe we can just mass nothing but hydras and learn how to macro and 1-a"

Hydras need a more specific role. Right now all it does is... well... kill stuff with 1-a.
11/21/2012 08:31 AMPosted by MechaGhidrah
My idea is to buff Hydra HP by 20 and make them have grooved spines already reasearched and speed would be lair tech and Hydras would have a researchable ability that every other attack the Hydra would shoot out a spray of spines that could hit any uits near the original target. It would be Hive tech or would cost 200 mins and 200 gas. This is just something I brainstormerd so feel free to comment.

Yeah!!! More 1-a units that can shoot both air and ground plus it can now trade evenly vs marines and other aoe counters... Woot...
Yeah it was something I brainstorm and Hydras shoot barrages of spines in lore so i just thought it would be cool and an interesting buff
11/21/2012 01:45 PMPosted by MechaGhidrah
Yeah it was something I brainstorm and Hydras shoot barrages of spines in lore so i just thought it would be cool and an interesting buff

The rapid fire is similar to the barrages. If you look closely hydras don't rapid fire in lore.

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