I guess no one remembers the truth

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11/13/2012 02:46 AMPosted by BronzeAddict
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381326


Hmm could it be that they have a personal stake to say the race they are having a hard time againest is OP?
11/13/2012 02:48 AMPosted by Reno
Hmm could it be that they have a personal stake to say the race they are having a hard time againest is OP?
Did you see the one from Nestea? I don't think he has any stake in saying infestor/broodlord is too strong.
Terran players came to these forums and TL and /r/starcraft and talked about how Zerg and Protoss players need to just learn how to play. "Use all of your units" they said;


Yes, that one cracked me up the most. I'd say about 80% of the matches I've been in, the Terran (both ally and opponent) have done nothing but mmm. Occasionally they will get tanks or vikings and some of them like to rush/mass Thors or even more rarely banshees. I've hardly ever seen them use BCs, Ghosts, Ravens, Hellions or Reapers (outside of sometimes making a halfhearted early game economy hit). The stupidity of it all is that Blizzard has always and will always expect toss to quickly tech up to one of two much higher tier units to deal with their massing of tier 1, and these units can still be easily brought down with a handful of the right supplement unit.
But Z and P players did learn to play. Zerg players never made infestors in the past, knew the importance of creep spread or made more than 1 queen per hatchery. All of these things were small things Zerg players did at the learned to play their race. Even without the queen buff, making 4-6 queens would have been great to deflect early harassment.

So the meta did shift, it just took it longer. Terran is underpowered now - the numbers do not lie - but it is not because of all the nerfs. It's because Zerg players finally learned how to play their race properly and are now reaping the benefits.
11/13/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Jonathan
Zerg players never made infestors in the past, knew the importance of creep spread or made more than 1 queen per hatchery


How far in the past are we talking? Because spanishiwa's ice fisher build is incredibly old, and revolves around delaying gas and holding aggression with spines and queens, and gets extra queens specifically for creep spread.
11/13/2012 02:37 AMPosted by Vindicare
Balance does not mean that every race should have their turn at being overpowered.


It is to Blizzard. That is how they balance in all of their games nowadays.

As for the OP's accusation of memory loss... I'd just like to point out how ironic the following quote is:I don't remember Zerg or Protoss players crying this much about Ghosts or Stim or Bunkers while Terran had 60+% winrates.


I find this hilarious lol. When terran was destryoing everything, Protoss and zerg were huge QQ's, Zerg especially. Oh man they complained for a full year, saying they were the most underpowered race and that they had to be better to win. All 2010-11, the first year of starcraft 2, oh man they complained the entire time. Zerg was always QQ saying they needed buffs, all their forum was QQ about how terrible the hydra was, and how bad the ultra was, and how they can't beat other races because they were far to OP.

hhaahahah so for you to say the other races just sat down and nodded politely as they got steamrolled, that sure wasn't the case.
11/13/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Drathjon
I find this hilarious lol. When terran was destryoing everything, Protoss and zerg were huge QQ's, Zerg especially. Oh man they complained for a full year, saying they were the most underpowered race and that they had to be better to win. All 2010-11, the first year of starcraft 2, oh man they complained the entire time. Zerg was always QQ saying they needed buffs, all their forum was QQ about how terrible the hydra was, and how bad the ultra was, and how they can't beat other races because they were far to OP.


Were you actually here then? There was definitely QQ from all 3 races, but I think you're exaggerating the QQ quite a bit. There was a vocal but small minority of zerg players that did QQ about literally everything under the sun - they were called the "IdrA fanboys" and things of that nature due to the fact that nearly everything they said came straight from the mouth of IdrA.
Who are you addressing with this post, people as out-of-touch as yourself?
Were you actually here then? There was definitely QQ from all 3 races, but I think you're exaggerating the QQ quite a bit. There was a vocal but small minority of zerg players that did QQ about literally everything under the sun - they were called the "IdrA fanboys" and things of that nature due to the fact that nearly everything they said came straight from the mouth of IdrA.


Oh yeah of course I was there. You can look at my old posts, I responded to several QQ threads from both zerg and protoss and I even started one with the ghost EMP being to strong. Trust me I was not exaggerating, my point is there was huge QQ from the protoss and zerg crowd and they weren't quiet when Terran was dominating the tourney. Look back to old post, most of them were just complaints.
11/13/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Drathjon
Oh yeah of course I was there. You can look at my old posts, I responded to several QQ threads from both zerg and protoss and I even started one with the ghost EMP being to strong


Your oldest post is from july 2011 - a year after release.

I'm assuming that's when you started posting here, or you had a name change, as you specifically mentioned 2010-2011, which is the period where you were not on these forums.
Just to let you know terran's were OP back in the day, I agree with you. Most of use knew that we were OP and half of our games were just constant cheese because we had the ability for us to cheese. Then they started the continued terran nerfs. At first it was al right because there were so many ways to cheese and just mass reaper was devastating to other players. I personally like to think of this as terrans were just generally more advanced and knew a lot more then the other races for a long period of time. Why do I say this? Well When the protoss was always 2 base all in, the zergs said that there was no way to hold it off and it was impossible. Then one zerg said that they can just go for a fast 3rd base and the protoss cant do anything about it which changed the state of the game forever. With little to no balance changes on the protoss side the zergs still learned how to hold the push off.

Now moving forward, other terran nerfs were really understandable because we were just abusing so many different features that were really OP. But I started to get a little ticked off when they changed the ghost. When they changed the ghost terrans knew that they would start to have trouble against BL infestor. Then thats when some terrans started to popularize super aggressive builds which halted zergs from getting to that BL infestor stage. I'll continue about zerg soon now to protoss.

Protoss has always had the OP death ball it just wasn't discovered and/or popularized. Sure protoss was really weak in the early game but if they were to get to that late game scenario they still would lose because they just didn't know what to do and didn't have someone to guide them through it. At this moment the death ball is OP in PvT but very weak in PvZ. Zergs just found a way around the death ball and the archon toilet which is making PvZ ever more difficult and I think protoss really needs a buff to help them against zerg. Protoss started to get OP against terran when they realized that they can just get to a fast 3 base and mass zealots and then I win. Terrans countered this by going into early harass mode to stop them from massing zealots and getting to that deathball. You may say "but zealots were never changed and terrans don't complain about them any more". Yes your right we don't complain about them even though they still are a horrible problem. Why? We have more important things to complain about just like the infestor.

The game became super balanced. Everyone had their standard build and everything seemed nice. Then that horrible day when blizzard decided to buff the queen and the overlord. That was almost like the stock market crash in 1929. Terrans scrambled because the hellion opener just didn't work as well any more. So we started to resort to allins but they failed. So what did we do? We kept trying and trying to find a build that will stop a zerg from getting to that BL infestor stage where we know it will be hard to win. Did we? Not really. We still have no answer to BL infestor. The raven is starting to get popularized but in some games terrans just dont have the resources and the time to get the ravens they need to deal with the BL infestor armies that were on the way.

That is the reason for terran QQ we had to change our build over and over just to get into place with the meta game while the other races just did the same thing and cried about terrans. Yes we were OP and they did have a reason to QQ but they could have just changed their play styles to counter what the terran was doing. This is just my 2 cents and some of this information may be false and I would be happy if you would correct me but on the most part I am right.

Wow just realized I wrote somewhat of an essay in less then 30 minutes. If only I could do this for school work :(
There are complainers in all three races, and there have been since the game's inception. Calling out Terrans for doing this is missing approximately two thirds of the story.
Heart of the Swarm is coming out soon, so design aspects being looked at are really out the window until then. However, I do feel like Terrans in comparison have a lot of whining without justification, mainly because their race is so capable from the early game and when they lose it's usually because they never use that capability. I'm not too sure about PvZ, but in PvT Terran can badly abuse Protoss immobility and are vastly rewarded if they use APM well. The game itself is relatively balanced, although I want to suggest that certain design choices are not.
Balance is like a Pendulum.

It swings back and forth between favouring one side over the other as changes are added and momentum against the favoured zone (or race in this case) builds amongst those enlightened enough to make the real balance decisions.

The truth you present has some merit, but its also highly biased. Terran started out powerful because the race was easier to pick up and play effectively from out of the gate. Its a similar situation to when Starcraft I was released and Protoss was the most powerful race out of the gate as players discovered the power of early mass Zealot pressure, but things soon shifted to Zerg dominance due to the 150min Spawning Pool and ling rushes.

I think that arguing that 'Terran was OP in the past, now its Zerg's turn to be OP' is a poor argument. The net goal of a neutral game balance designer/tester is to achieve a stationary pendulum, or absolute balance between all races. No prejudices about which race should be the most powerful and when are taken into account when these decisions are made.

That being said, I believe that Infestors are disproportionally better then Terran caster offerings because of the high usefulness of all their abilities. With the introduction of the Viper, Swarm Guardian, Ultralisk Charge, and Hydralisk Speed one can expect that two things will happen:

1) The Infestor will be nerfed in some way to reflect the increased competence of other Zerg units.
2) Terran caster units (Battlecruisers, Thors, and Ravens especially) will have their effectiveness increased to compensate for these changes.
Terran was grossly overpowered at the start of the game. They DOMINATED tournaments over and over and over and over, with only the occasional Zerg or Protoss player making it to the finals. Their domination went on for over a year. Everyone agreed (except for the Terran players) that the game was broken.

Terran players came to these forums and TL and /r/starcraft and talked about how Zerg and Protoss players need to just learn how to play. "Use all of your units" they said; "The sample sizes for these tournaments are too small to make conclusions about balance" they said; "The better players just play Terran" they said...

Blizzard waited a few seasons to see if the "meta game" would shift back to a balanced state, but it did not. They finally began tweaking small timings like Stim, Ghosts, Bunkers and Hellions in the hopes of bringing the game back to the ~50% marker.

After several Terran nerfs, and the Terran players no longer had the inherent advantage in every game, the cries of "Terran is underpowered", and "Why did you nerf us so many times?", and "This game is hard now" began to flood these forums. The game was approaching a balanced state, but that didn't matter.

When they were confronted with the ugly truth about how ridiculously imbalanced their race was at the beginning of the game, they spouted back that the only reason Blizzard nerfed their race was that Zerg and Protoss players were complaining. YES THATS RIGHT, they believed that Blizzard nerfed Terran only because the other two races were complaining, and not because the cold, hard numbers clearly indicated an advantage for them.

Terran players complained endlessly about Protoss late game (claiming it was impossible), and didn't speak much about the TvZ matchup.

But now, here we are post-Queen patch and EVERYTHING that comes out of a Terran players mouth is about the Infestor. Apparently Protoss late game doesn't matter anymore. It's "the Infestor this" and "the Infestor that" and "its imbalanced" and "I don't want to make Ghosts because theyre not as strong as they used to be".

And now, the very thing that Terran players pointed their finger and screamed about for a year (that the only reason Blizzard nerfed them was because of the other two races complaining) is the exact same thing they are doing now......and ten times as much.

I don't remember Zerg or Protoss players crying this much about Ghosts or Stim or Bunkers while Terran had 60+% winrates. Now Terran players, so accustomed to pointing their fingers, are exhibiting the same behavior.

In the end, the game is balanced. Winrates are close to 50%, and tournaments share a variety of races. The Infestor is a stupid and powerful unit, but it is Blizzards band-aid fix to the rest of the underpowered Zerg race.


Just throwing it out there Protoss hate the Infestor too. And this post just makes you a hypocrite.

In the words of ROOT.TOD "I feel for Protosses everywhere."
In the words of Maj0r: "Of course there's going to be a lot of upsets. All the Koreans are Protoss all the foreigners are Zerg so all the Koreans are going to lose."
Just to let you know terran's were OP back in the day, I agree with you. Most of use knew that we were OP and half of our games were just constant cheese because we had the ability for us to cheese. Then they started the continued terran nerfs. At first it was al right because there were so many ways to cheese and just mass reaper was devastating to other players. I personally like to think of this as terrans were just generally more advanced and knew a lot more then the other races for a long period of time. Why do I say this? Well When the protoss was always 2 base all in, the zergs said that there was no way to hold it off and it was impossible. Then one zerg said that they can just go for a fast 3rd base and the protoss cant do anything about it which changed the state of the game forever. With little to no balance changes on the protoss side the zergs still learned how to hold the push off.

Now moving forward, other terran nerfs were really understandable because we were just abusing so many different features that were really OP. But I started to get a little ticked off when they changed the ghost. When they changed the ghost terrans knew that they would start to have trouble against BL infestor. Then thats when some terrans started to popularize super aggressive builds which halted zergs from getting to that BL infestor stage. I'll continue about zerg soon now to protoss.

Protoss has always had the OP death ball it just wasn't discovered and/or popularized. Sure protoss was really weak in the early game but if they were to get to that late game scenario they still would lose because they just didn't know what to do and didn't have someone to guide them through it. At this moment the death ball is OP in PvT but very weak in PvZ. Zergs just found a way around the death ball and the archon toilet which is making PvZ ever more difficult and I think protoss really needs a buff to help them against zerg. Protoss started to get OP against terran when they realized that they can just get to a fast 3 base and mass zealots and then I win. Terrans countered this by going into early harass mode to stop them from massing zealots and getting to that deathball. You may say "but zealots were never changed and terrans don't complain about them any more". Yes your right we don't complain about them even though they still are a horrible problem. Why? We have more important things to complain about just like the infestor.

The game became super balanced. Everyone had their standard build and everything seemed nice. Then that horrible day when blizzard decided to buff the queen and the overlord. That was almost like the stock market crash in 1929. Terrans scrambled because the hellion opener just didn't work as well any more. So we started to resort to allins but they failed. So what did we do? We kept trying and trying to find a build that will stop a zerg from getting to that BL infestor stage where we know it will be hard to win. Did we? Not really. We still have no answer to BL infestor. The raven is starting to get popularized but in some games terrans just dont have the resources and the time to get the ravens they need to deal with the BL infestor armies that were on the way.

That is the reason for terran QQ we had to change our build over and over just to get into place with the meta game while the other races just did the same thing and cried about terrans. Yes we were OP and they did have a reason to QQ but they could have just changed their play styles to counter what the terran was doing. This is just my 2 cents and some of this information may be false and I would be happy if you would correct me but on the most part I am right.

Wow just realized I wrote somewhat of an essay in less then 30 minutes. If only I could do this for school work :(


Sorry but this is a little elitist. This is like the classic "My race innovates more". On release Terran had TONS of options. The strongest ones were the meta game of the time and EVERY terran used them. Terran got nerfed because they were TOO effective and they realized that, once reapers were nerfed things like reactor hellion openings were also SUPER effective and those had to be changed too.

Zergs were given queen buffs because there was no reason for terran to do anything but reactor hellion, its effectiveness dissuaded other strategies.

Now, most of these nerfs to terran were made to keep the early game less volatile (terran sits behind their wall in and wrecks havok early/mid game) and we start to see something that was never even HAPPENING before:

- The Late game

Now just because I think terran needed those nerfs doesn't mean I think that zerg is ok right now: nerfing terran was fixing the early game so when terrans whine about the lategame WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT FIXING THE LATEGAME not ruining the early game again.

Late game zerg is very similar right now to all the terran nerfs: strategies that were so good that no other ones were done <-- kills variety and is very predictable (bad for E-Sports)

So again, don't try to mess with the early game; if it is late game where terrans aren't winning FIX THE LATEGAME for terran. Hellions pre Queen buff were terran's band aid fix to keeping zerg in the midgame where terran was superior; infestors are zergs band aid fix to the void hydras fail to fill.

Here is another one for you:

Wall in/bunker = sentry Force Field = Queen.

These all dissuade early attacks from making the early game too volatile and until the game progresses they do not make it far out of the base. Running into a queen with hellions is the same as zerglings running into a wall of supply depots sorry :'(

"Yes we were OP and they did have a reason to QQ but they could have just changed their play styles to counter what the terran was doing."

This is such a joke. You think people REFUSED to find solutions? People who were playing zerg and protoss were being paid (going pro) back then like they are now and you think they didn't try? You are ignorant and elitist if you think so; zerg and protoss have since release been patched to actually HAVE options while terran has been taken off their high horse to the state of the other races.
11/11/2012 03:08 PMPosted by FinnTheHuman
To be fair, back when Terrans were dominating, a lot of them were really good players. You cannot deny that NaDa, MMA, Mvp, BoxeR and Lee Jung-Hoon are/were amazing players. Back then, how many amazing Zergs and Protoss were there?


They only looked amazing because Terran was OP.
Your oldest post is from july 2011 - a year after release.

I'm assuming that's when you started posting here, or you had a name change, as you specifically mentioned 2010-2011, which is the period where you were not on these forums.


Yes my oldest post is 2011, However if you look at my past seasons I've been here since season 1 playing. I also saw many beta casts, first tourneys, in the first year which is why I know there was a lot of complaining.
Back when roach was 3 range, and high templar can warp in storm.
There were many complainers and because I am posting a year after the game came out doesn't really change anything since I was playing since season 1
I wasn't posting because I didn't want to post anything because I never thought I had too. The only reason I posted once was because I was beyond frustrated with ghosts because they seemed ridiculously good against protoss and I raged on the forums which is why I ended up here a year later. I have been playing since season 1 when zerg would 1 base muta which was terrible but they would try it over and over.

2011 had a ton of complaining viewed by my posts, if you want more evidence your more than welcome to go back to the 2010 pages and see everyone getting along apparently. That just wasn't the case, everyone was complaining and everyone is still complaining. Just on different sides.

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