No Offracing Allowed

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ProdofVoid, you realize you're ranked separately with every teammate, right?
11/01/2012 04:43 PMPosted by ProdofVoid
Then I sweet talk viper into play 2v2 and he carries me to gold


Wanna try tomorrow?
Okay, so to recap, I saved the day with the brilliant idea of having separate MMR for each race on unranked. So, everyone congratulate me on my brilliance!
11/01/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Doncroft
ProdofVoid, you realize you're ranked separately with every teammate, right?


yup is what I was saying. There is no need for separate ladders per race in team games. You can just team up with someone else and switch.

Though I do find it odd when two people who can play Random 2v2 can get to diamond, yet when they team together are silver quality...how odd.

11/01/2012 04:45 PMPosted by VIPER
Then I sweet talk viper into play 2v2 and he carries me to gold


Wanna try tomorrow?


Gmt -8 around 10pm would work for me, how about you?
I'm definitely in support of this. I have basically only ever played Zerg, and I can do so at a Masters level because I put in time to learning different timings and getting comfortable with the hotkeys and the units. I'd love to have a separate placement for Terran and Toss so I could try my hand at them at my leisure rather than completely tanking my MMR to get to a level where I'd be evenly matched with my offrace, and basically having to either commit to learning that race or end up in some limbo situation where I crush when using my main race and get crushed with my offrace.

+1 I would love it if we could get this. Plus it would be a big attraction for more casual players as well.
yup is what I was saying. There is no need for separate ladders per race in team games. You can just team up with someone else and switch.

Exactly. Which is why this is a 1v1 concern only. I'm not saying we should have separate race MMRs for team game categories.
You have my support, as I do wish to see a separate MMR for each race even if it's unranked.
Simply because I really love Zerg, but I can't play them very well ^_^
Honestly I feel there are two different simple solutions that could fix this, Either;
A) Allowing multiple accounts per sc2 copy

or

B) On the ladder match screen have a checkbox that says "Play Unranked" when playing 1v1, only instead of separating the two different ladders from ranked and unranked, have it so they are merged into 1 so your opponent is guaranteed to be around your MMR - however upon winning/losing a match your ladder rank/points remains unchanged as it was unranked (yet your opponent still gains/loses points for his win/loss assuming he was playing ranked).

This way there isn't a shortage of opponents (as most people play ranked anyways) and you dont have to worry about a massive plummet in MMR/Ladder ranking as you cant gain/lose anything (thereby killing ladder anxiety).
Honestly I feel there are two different simple solutions that could fix this, Either;
A) Allowing multiple accounts per sc2 copy

or

B) On the ladder match screen have a checkbox that says "Play Unranked" when playing 1v1, only instead of separating the two different ladders from ranked and unranked, have it so they are merged into 1 so your opponent is guaranteed to be around your MMR - however upon winning/losing a match your ladder rank/points remains unchanged as it was unranked (yet your opponent still gains/loses points for his win/loss assuming he was playing ranked).

This way there isn't a shortage of opponents (as most people play ranked anyways) and you dont have to worry about a massive plummet in MMR/Ladder ranking as you cant gain/lose anything (thereby killing ladder anxiety).

For some reason, I'm having trouble making a connection between the OP and this response. Are you talking about offracing?
I want this!


B) On the ladder match screen have a checkbox that says "Play Unranked" when playing 1v1, only instead of separating the two different ladders from ranked and unranked, have it so they are merged into 1 so your opponent is guaranteed to be around your MMR - however upon winning/losing a match your ladder rank/points remains unchanged as it was unranked (yet your opponent still gains/loses points for his win/loss assuming he was playing ranked).

This way there isn't a shortage of opponents (as most people play ranked anyways) and you dont have to worry about a massive plummet in MMR/Ladder ranking as you cant gain/lose anything (thereby killing ladder anxiety).


This doesn't fulfill what Doncroft is trying to accomplish though. When you would do this, you'd play people of the same MMR as your main race. If you're offracing, you're going to most likely be playing below your main race skill level, and you wouldn't be playing against someone of equal skill as your offrace.
11/01/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Nightwolf
i made this same topic the other day


This topic has been created many times. I believe even I have created this topic over a year ago, but that is besides the point.

Blizzard is listening to suggestions now, and Doncroft's post is very well-written and organized to create a successful discussion. I can only hope Blizzard takes notice.
11/01/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Dacder
Okay, so to recap, I saved the day with the brilliant idea of having separate MMR for each race on unranked. So, everyone congratulate me on my brilliance!


But, but, but!

Perhaps Blizzard could implement separate MMRs for each race ONLY for Unranked? I think that could work well. There's a lot of potential for things we could accomplish with the Unranked Ladder.I think that Ranked should stick to one overall MMR though.


Page 1!!
11/01/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Kelthar
in all fairness Don, if you wanted to play all 3 races, why not just play random?

I addressed that in the OP, Kelthar.

(Note: Playing random doesn't technically accomplish this either, because you'll still likely be better with one race than the other two.)

11/01/2012 05:45 PMPosted by WhyLater
But, but, but!

I know. ProdofVoid also suggested it. Dacder's just being a silly-dilly.
11/01/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Doncroft
I know. ProdofVoid also suggested it. Dacder's just being a silly-dilly.


<.<

>.>

Heh heh, I knew that...
Yeah, I almost enjoy getting roflstomped by people better than me--as a learning experience--and I also enjoy winning against people as good as me, and I enjoy beating the tar out of people not as good as me. That's how the ladder works, right?

It's sort of the joy of SC2, imo.

If you want to be able to do all of the above with each race, I think all one needs to do is play each race equal amounts of time, and it will happen.
The problem with this is you could have one smurf race that you keep in bronze by dropping games
Edit: +1 if that wasn't clear.
posted by ProdofVoid
I am all for the idea of separate ladder per races *if*, all races can only be 2 leagues apart max.

I agree. We should have the ability to enter a different ladder as a different race for matchmaking. I think this would be confusing to some people, if you had three times the ladders with the only difference being the race you played as. I propose that there is only one (visible) ladder that is affected by each game, but you have different MMR for each race option (including random.) Below is an explanation on this concept in my mind.

  • Firstly, each loss still affects you ladder ranking, as does each win. Opponent's race MMR closeness to your race MMR is the primary adjuster to your MMR and Ladder points.
    This means each game will adjust points based on relative win% of the opponent and yourself with chosen races. (In both shadow and real ladders)
  • Secondly, the system will keep track of ladder points and MMR for each race option.
    • Your "league" for each race will be shown in the profile's level and statistics tabs for the appropriate race, as well as the score screen after each game.
    • A second "highly favored, favored or balanced" bar will appear on the loading screen; One comparing both race-choice-MMRs, one comparing both main-race-MMRs (OR the mainMMR bar will not exist).
    • This is so you can compare “basic skill” with that of your opponent without looking at the replay or ladder. This will also avoid rage of a silver being matched with a diamond (for example), when in reality both players should have a roughly 50% chance of beating each other based on MMR with both player's chosen race options.
  • Thirdly, you will we gain points for each game, with each race option, in the "main' or "real" ladder so you will see progress in your division for each game appropriately.
  • Fourthly, You will be placed in a visible league according to the top MMR of the 4 “hidden ladders” and in a division according to mean of the 4 MMRs.
    • The "main" league or division that you are in will still show your most played as race in addition to your best race (as in, on the 1v1 league tab (visible/real), there will be a symbol on the row with your name on it for both Best and Most Played.
    This means that someone who is skilled with one race will still be diamond or masters in the visible league, while allowing them to “focus on the division” in terms of progression. This also means you can still pull the league card even if you suck at Terran, though I will still despise you for stooping so low.

In summary, there will be 4 ladders, but only one will be visible to the general public. To avoid inappropriate rage at the system, race-ladder-leauge badges will be show pre-game and in score screen. Each ladder has a MMR and league promotion system that will allow players to track progress with each race in addition to win%. Divisions will still show progress of you as an all around player, while league will show your best race. Match making will be improved for off-racing, therefore improving match making for experimenters. I believe this to be a great compromise system.

Possible Problems:
1: I accept that this will mean roughly 3x as many calculations that the ladder system will need to make and roughly 4x as much data stored. I have no idea how much this is, but can it really be that much?
2: I'm not sure if the visible ladder would make sense. Would take testing and such.

Edit: A method to avoid "smurfing"
  • Your starting/basic MMR for any off-races will be average between your best MMR (highest MMR) and the general starting (original) MMR. Can be weighted with balancing to avoid pre-settling exploits and smurfing.
  • The system will remember this score between seasons and it will be your hidden MMR for all 4 races between your last game of the season and first game of the new season (per race). However, if the system remembers a score for a race option (under current forgetting system), that will stay the MMR for that race.
This is all a complicated way of making the system remember a starting score for your races between seasons if you don't play a single game as a particular race for 2 seasons that is closer to your real skill.
In the visible ladder, this has no effect. This score will be forgotten if you play NO games on any random ladder for 2 seasons.

Edits: just reordering for clarity.

Please do not disregard based solely on my league badge, lack thereof, or any other snobbish response.

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