Trading infestor nerf for Marine nerf and...

General Discussion
I really want to agree with you Finn, but, I hate to say, I think you're wrong about this one. Infestors have become a core-unit because of the very needed versatility they bring. In the same vein that marines bring so much to the table, overshadowing other units, the infestor fills the needed holes the other units can't provide; thus, it has become an essential portion of any composition.

A core-unit is not defined by being placed in tier 1. It needs to be the structure that holds the composition together.

I'm surprised you brought up mutalisks. I'm pretty sure you're in the HOTS beta as well. You should know the new limitations of going ling/bane/muta against either Terran or Protoss.


That means blizzard screwed something up. Infestor was never meant to become the core anything, they are meant for a support caster like ht and Ghosts. If they have become the core like marines then something went horribly wrong and the infestor absolutely has to be nerfed because it's in the wrong role.

If you need to compensate by buffing other units then so be it, but one unit should not fit 6 roles or whatever roles it fits(i just picked a random number).
11/13/2012 09:28 PMPosted by FinnTheHuman
it might have something to do with my love of double evo very early and out-upgrading my opponent.


Good stuff.

11/13/2012 09:28 PMPosted by FinnTheHuman
Though, if Terran goes bio or marine/tank, I can crush it with Muta/Ling/Bling.


Now add, widow mine/marine/tank. If mines receive auto-cast control (they may already have), they can detonate on the baneling pack. If I saw one mine take out 6-8 banes, I think I'd vomit, probably projectile....

Really, if the opponent went exclusively ling/bane/muta, you could probably just build widow mines and turrets all the way into the mid-game....

DaveRoid post in 3... 2... oh, he's already here.
Winfester nerf is coming whether you like it or not. .


Don't get too excited though, if ever they half something (snipe damage) that kind of nerf is reserved for Terran, and is done hastily and in the middle of important events, but if they are going to do something huge (increase a basic attack range of queens by 2/3) it will be for Zerg.

The Infestor nerf will have to be gentle, tiny, and still leave the unit totally relevant in its current role and almost as if it never happened. It will probably be paired with some huge buff for another unit to fill in "the gap" that would be created from making the race hard to play.

Creep will still persist so long that in the 2-3 minutes after Zerg sees your composition coming across the map, he can make the hard counter for it and kill you 9 ways from Sunday.

Queen buff is still retarded and Snipe is still a down syndrome ability.
11/13/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Sole
it might have something to do with my love of double evo very early and out-upgrading my opponent.


Good stuff.

Though, if Terran goes bio or marine/tank, I can crush it with Muta/Ling/Bling.


Now add, widow mine/marine/tank. If mines receive auto-cast control (they may already have), they can detonate on the baneling pack. If I saw one mine take out 6-8 banes, I think I'd vomit, probably projectile....

Really, if the opponent went exclusively ling/bane/muta, you could probably just build widow mines and turrets all the way into the mid-game....

DaveRoid post in 3... 2... oh, he's already here.


People don't really move mines with their armies.
If they have become the core like marines then something went horribly wrong and the infestor absolutely has to be nerfed because it's in the wrong role.

If you need to compensate by buffing other units then so be it, but one unit should not fit 6 roles or whatever roles it fits(i just picked a random number).


I agree with you on this. I'm not sure if you're responding to me, or to a general zerg consensus, but I think we are missing each other here.

But, for a moment, let's really dig into the reasons how the infestor fills the current gaps, and the coverage that would be needed in the event of a change to fungal growth and infested terrans.

  • What other unit does zerg have to ensnare the opponent so that banelings can connect; mutas can reach phoenixes; and ultralisks catch up to their targets?
  • What other unit provides reliable, microable anti-armor damage?
  • What other unit allows ground missile upgrades be a viable path toward the late game?
  • What other unit allows you to survive the gaping tier 1 --> tier 3 transition?
  • 11/13/2012 03:58 PMPosted by PotatoLiSK
    Unlike infestors, Marines are a core unit. Infestors could arguably be a core unit, but they are more of an abused support caster. Also changing Marines would screw Terran against Protoss.

    Logic

    +1

    sadly they just won't see it.

    11/13/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Essex
    i just feel like people whine too much, no hypocritical stances intended. i just feel like zerg options are limited and the reduction of a units effectiveness for an already under-optioned race, is just petrifying.

    People whine because zergs OP much like how all the zergs whined when terran was OP. All you are doing is repeating the same things that terrans said when they where OP.
  • What other unit does zerg have to ensnare the opponent so that banelings can connect; mutas can reach phoenixes; and ultralisks catch up to their targets?
  • What other unit provides reliable, microable anti-armor damage?
  • What other unit allows ground missile upgrades be a viable path toward the late game?
  • What other unit allows you to survive the gaping tier 1 --> tier 3 transition?


  • There shouldn't be a guaranteed way to make speedy aoe units guaranteed to connect, especially not when they hard counter the core of the Terran army. You should have to control your army to get desired results.
  • Muta's still cause massive problems for Protoss, and typically are used in the Protoss base at weak locations where Infestors are not supporting them to begin with
  • Ultras are amazing damage absorbers, with awesome cleave, and great seige damage. Use them for something other than a "I kill absolutely everything you have" unit, use them to fight at places your opponent has to engage, flank him, or engage properly
  • Infestor is only marginally anti-armour and that is mostly because it was wayyy too good against light and needed to be changed. It is not specifically anti-armour, it is just better against armour because it needed to be worse against Marines, and what micro?
  • Hydras ideally, but consider yourself lucky that carapace and melee is enough to buff your lings, banes, and both tier 3 tech paths, you couldn't handle the number of upgrades Terran has to manage
  • Gaping Tier 1 to Tier 3 tansition has only existed as long as Zerg has insisted on rushing Hive, its a hole you have created because you have been so unassailable for so long. Learn to midgame.
  • If they have become the core like marines then something went horribly wrong and the infestor absolutely has to be nerfed because it's in the wrong role.

    If you need to compensate by buffing other units then so be it, but one unit should not fit 6 roles or whatever roles it fits(i just picked a random number).


    I agree with you on this. I'm not sure if you're responding to me, or to a general zerg consensus, but I think we are missing each other here.

    But, for a moment, let's really dig into the reasons how the infestor fills the current gaps, and the coverage that would be needed in the event of a change to fungal growth and infested terrans.

  • What other unit does zerg have to ensnare the opponent so that banelings can connect; mutas can reach phoenixes; and ultralisks catch up to their targets?
  • What other unit provides reliable, microable anti-armor damage?
  • What other unit allows ground missile upgrades be a viable path toward the late game?
  • What other unit allows you to survive the gaping tier 1 --> tier 3 transition?


  • About the whole ensnare thing...Stop being lazy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcQedw7R1zk
    http://day9.tv/d/Day9/tlo-innovates-zerg-again/

    TLO playing against a toss with day9 commentary
    lol theres alot of zerg units that beat marines you just have to actually make units
    11/13/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Phil
    Wrong, zerg were fine with ling/bling/muta in midgame before then so don't act like zerg were hopeless without it.


    To be fair that was a long time ago, before Infestors really started seeing regular use. Nowadays terran players are skilled enough with splits and target firing that they can take out ling/bling/muta almost purely with marines alone with some tanks in support. Ling/bling/muta just doesn't work on its own anymore, you need infestors or the marines will just stim and run away all day.
    When nerfing a race, the idea is to bring it from being too strong to in line with the other races. Doing that, then significantly nerfing both other races still leaves zerg too strong.

    Which as a zerg is probably what you want, but still not a good idea.
    we can already conclude that muta/ling/baneling is almost a guaranteed loss against terran.

    if it did work, why dont the pros do it any more?

    infestors are the safest opening because they are the core unit that allows the entire zerg race to stay on even footing with other races during mid-game and late-game. in fact, in order for a battle to go even remotely in favor of zerg, chain fungals are Required, for at least a third of your army to even survive for the next push.

    Terran/protoss/zerg goes for fast 3rd/planetary expo? burrowed infestors with IT eggs can help bridge the gap.

    Deathball push from protoss? if you have no energy on your infestors, your brood lord/roach army is essentially 100% dead.

    Dealing with mass marine/ marine tank/ drop play, without infestor effectiveness, it's basically auto loss against terran.

    Its no doubt that if muta/ling/baneling was effective, pros would use that build more often, but guess what, its not.

    marines alone counter muta's and lings by themselves, and banes are countered by splitting marines. that means that marines hard counter the entire tech path that zerg took just to survive from it. that is imbalance on the terran side.

    to bridge it, infestors must be effective at what they do, meaning keeping the marines from being overly effective, and keeping protoss army at bay (since deathball is stupid effective against ALL races).
    I agree with you on this. I'm not sure if you're responding to me, or to a general zerg consensus, but I think we are missing each other here.

    But, for a moment, let's really dig into the reasons how the infestor fills the current gaps, and the coverage that would be needed in the event of a change to fungal growth and infested terrans.

    What other unit does zerg have to ensnare the opponent so that banelings can connect; mutas can reach phoenixes; and ultralisks catch up to their targets?
    What other unit provides reliable, microable anti-armor damage?
    What other unit allows ground missile upgrades be a viable path toward the late game?
    What other unit allows you to survive the gaping tier 1 --> tier 3 transition?


    1.Well there is no other that zerg has because why would you want two units to do the same thing? Secondly the problem is there should be no sure way to allow them to connect. The idea that zerg should have the right to basically stop micro and allow them to hit all their units is insane to say the least. It is like me saying I should have the right to have a spell that stops all units for 5 seconds, how else could I land storms?Banelings should not be a hundred percent, because on creep and with speed, they are far faster than stimmed marines. So they are usually almost 100% even if the terran splits perfectly. That means yes you have to spread your creep which is a zerg mechanic.
    2.Mutas are not meant to catch phoenix, ever. Phoenix are literally the hard-counter to mutas, they are terrible at everything else. Phoenix is literally the hard-counter to mutas, Infestors are NOT meant to stop phoenix beating Mutas. Mutas are suppose to lose to phoenix. So I don't know where you got this point that mutas are suppose to to beat phoenix. The role of the phoenix is to literally beat muta, that's all it's purpose in the game. It loses to every other flying unit in cost and supply except for mutas.
    3. For ultras, here I agree. There is a problem with ultras but Ultras are never used because Infestor broodlord is far superior. Ultras are never made...Ever unless the zergs bored or trying something very random. Ultra is meant to be able to withstand strong attacks with it's armor and catch it's target on creep. However this could be fixed by buffs to the ultra.
    4. Anti-armor damage? You mean fungal? Fungal growth does terrible dps even with armored. It does 10 damage per second, a hydra does 15 damage per second. So you do have a unit that dishes amazing dps however the problem is infestor does so many things. Most people don't go for hydras since infestor convers a wide variety of sections.
    Example: Hydra > Air Infestor > 5 roles including air, even if hydra is a little better, infestor can do that role and many others so they skip hydras. Also the longevity is a problem since they die very quickly to colossus but only colossus. Colossus is the only protoss unit that actually beats hydra, Hydras basically counter everything else due to their dps but again colossus hard counters Hydras.
    5.Infested terran are far to good for their price unfortunately. 25 energy for a stimmed marine and the dps is insanity. It is far to cheap and useful for it's price. Also all upgrades for zerg scale far better than other races. Roaches +2 and hydras +1 their dps which has a massive affect due to the rate at which they fire at.
    Final Point: I don't get where people are getting this mindset? They aren't going to remove the infestor. Simply nerf it. If a unit is overpowered(Which it seems like it is) and it recieves a nerf, then why should everything else get a buff? Also why would zerg die mid game? A small nerf that will change things example in the lategame is different compared to what you are acting like will happen. They aren't gonig to remove the unit, simply tweak it's stats that it is a balanced unit. That is all, I would understand if they removed the unit because then zerg would lose every game. But that isn't the case, they are simply going to balance the unit by changing a few things. What you asked for, zerg has most of it such as a strong dps unit and a unit that scales great for ranged attacks. The muta point made no sense and the ultras I agree with but that could be changed with small buffs to the ultra rather than keeping overpowered unit atm.
    I agree with you on this. I'm not sure if you're responding to me, or to a general zerg consensus, but I think we are missing each other here.

    But, for a moment, let's really dig into the reasons how the infestor fills the current gaps, and the coverage that would be needed in the event of a change to fungal growth and infested terrans.

    What other unit does zerg have to ensnare the opponent so that banelings can connect; mutas can reach phoenixes; and ultralisks catch up to their targets?
    What other unit provides reliable, microable anti-armor damage?
    What other unit allows ground missile upgrades be a viable path toward the late game?
    What other unit allows you to survive the gaping tier 1 --> tier 3 transition?


    1.Well there is no other that zerg has because why would you want two units to do the same thing? Secondly the problem is there should be no sure way to allow them to connect. The idea that zerg should have the right to basically stop micro and allow them to hit all their units is insane to say the least. It is like me saying I should have the right to have a spell that stops all units for 5 seconds, how else could I land storms?Banelings should not be a hundred percent, because on creep and with speed, they are far faster than stimmed marines. So they are usually almost 100% even if the terran splits perfectly. That means yes you have to spread your creep which is a zerg mechanic.
    2.Mutas are not meant to catch phoenix, ever. Phoenix are literally the hard-counter to mutas, they are terrible at everything else. Phoenix is literally the hard-counter to mutas, Infestors are NOT meant to stop phoenix beating Mutas. Mutas are suppose to lose to phoenix. So I don't know where you got this point that mutas are suppose to to beat phoenix. The role of the phoenix is to literally beat muta, that's all it's purpose in the game. It loses to every other flying unit in cost and supply except for mutas.
    3. For ultras, here I agree. There is a problem with ultras but Ultras are never used because Infestor broodlord is far superior. Ultras are never made...Ever unless the zergs bored or trying something very random. Ultra is meant to be able to withstand strong attacks with it's armor and catch it's target on creep. However this could be fixed by buffs to the ultra.
    4. Anti-armor damage? You mean fungal? Fungal growth does terrible dps even with armored. It does 10 damage per second, a hydra does 15 damage per second. So you do have a unit that dishes amazing dps however the problem is infestor does so many things. Most people don't go for hydras since infestor convers a wide variety of sections.
    Example: Hydra > Air Infestor > 5 roles including air, even if hydra is a little better, infestor can do that role and many others so they skip hydras. Also the longevity is a problem since they die very quickly to colossus but only colossus. Colossus is the only protoss unit that actually beats hydra, Hydras basically counter everything else due to their dps but again colossus hard counters Hydras.
    5.Infested terran are far to good for their price unfortunately. 25 energy for a stimmed marine and the dps is insanity. It is far to cheap and useful for it's price. Also all upgrades for zerg scale far better than other races. Roaches +2 and hydras +1 their dps which has a massive affect due to the rate at which they fire at.
    Final Point: I don't get where people are getting this mindset? They aren't going to remove the infestor. Simply nerf it. If a unit is overpowered(Which it seems like it is) and it recieves a nerf, then why should everything else get a buff? Also why would zerg die mid game? A small nerf that will change things example in the lategame is different compared to what you are acting like will happen. They aren't gonig to remove the unit, simply tweak it's stats that it is a balanced unit. That is all, I would understand if they removed the unit because then zerg would lose every game. But that isn't the case, they are simply going to balance the unit by changing a few things. What you asked for, zerg has most of it such as a strong dps unit and a unit that scales great for ranged attacks. The muta point made no sense and the ultras I agree with but that could be changed with small buffs to the ultra rather than keeping overpowered unit atm.


    +1
    11/13/2012 10:26 PMPosted by FinnTheHuman
    About the whole ensnare thing


    Guess why I picked the word "ensnare" -- that whole Broodwar thing that happened.

    Stop being lazy.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcQedw7R1zk


    C-mon Finn, you know better than that -- you can't achieve that positioning until the Terran moves out of the base, and one widow mine with stimmed stutter-step will slaughter ling/bane.

    -
    Now on to this guy -- *sigh*

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    There shouldn't be a guaranteed way to make speedy aoe units guaranteed to connect, especially not when they hard counter the core of the Terran army. You should have to control your army to get desired results.


    Your units are faster than ours. I'd love speed banes to catch stimmed marines.

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    Muta's still cause massive problems for Protoss, and typically are used in the Protoss base at weak locations where Infestors are not supporting them to begin with


    Maybe it's just because I'm playing HOTS all the time, but mutas will be far less desirable in both ZvT and ZvP match-ups. In fact, they'll probably only be seen in ZvZs.

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    Ultras are amazing damage absorbers, with awesome cleave, and great seige damage. Use them for something other than a "I kill absolutely everything you have" unit, use them to fight at places your opponent has to engage, flank him, or engage properly


    They are actually pretty poor at absorbing damage; with their large size they are also very easy to focus. The cleave is negligible and it can be negated by have one unit moved slightly ahead of the rest of the army. Think of them as a big-a$s zealot, without zealot-charge.

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    Infestor is only marginally anti-armour and that is mostly because it was wayyy too good against light and needed to be changed. It is not specifically anti-armour, it is just better against armour because it needed to be worse against Marines, and what micro?


    It was originally designed to respond to the Protoss ball, which is primarily armored. Marines were an afterthought. Also, it doesn't change the fact that it is the preferred damage dealer against armored units

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    Hydras ideally, but consider yourself lucky that carapace and melee is enough to buff your lings, banes, and both tier 3 tech paths, you couldn't handle the number of upgrades Terran has to manage


    Wut? The only thing that double dips is ground carapace. I wasn't aware that going + ground range buffs up my ultralisks and broodlords. Huh, the more you know, I guess.

    But, seriously. In WoL, the units that need + ground missile upgrades rarely are built and upgraded along with units that need + ground melee. So, the only meaningful over-lap is ground carapace, which isn't really relative to the ZvT match-up anyway.

    11/13/2012 10:22 PMPosted by Naralas
    Gaping Tier 1 to Tier 3 tansition has only existed as long as Zerg has insisted on rushing Hive, its a hole you have created because you have been so unassailable for so long. Learn to midgame.


    I don't even know where you're going with this one. 1 base hive? 2 base hive? Most zergs delay hive as long as possible until they can get their 3rd saturated and probably are onto their 4th base. What is thi.. I don't eve....
    If mech was good against protoss I'd never make another marine again..

    I kid, but why would marines be nerfed when they are at they're best when a solid micro player handles them properly? It is harder to split than to root w/ fungals, at least from what I've seen in my play and pro play. (I'm terrible at it and it seems pros are having problems=no hope for me).

    I don't want this to come off as saying its harder to be a terran because I don't totally think that is true, zerg is very difficult to play, I can't do it at all. I just think when a single unit can create so much chaos inside and outside the game, something needs to be looked at and tested.

    So once this is all figured out, what is the next thing that will break the game?
    Forcefields don't affect corruptor/broodlord.
    They aren't going to remove the infestor. Simply nerf it.


    Hmm, maybe I wasn't very straight-forward with these posts:

    I'm actually advocating for the removal of fungal growth, because it fills too many roles that should be spread out to other units.
    Hmm, maybe I wasn't very straight-forward with these posts:

    I'm actually advocating for the removal of fungal growth, because it fills too many roles that should be spread out to other units.


    Oh the way you were writing everything, it sounded like you were advocating infestors be left untouched.

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