Trading infestor nerf for Marine nerf and...

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11/13/2012 11:46 PMPosted by GeminiEclips
Forcefields don't affect corruptor/broodlord.

well no sh.. thats like saying scv's cant attack overlords.

forcefield hard counters zerg ground like they always do. it always forces to do unfavorable, therefore terrible engagement, at almost no cost, since forcefield is spamable and only 50 energy. (4 fields per sentry at max level, thats op, considering that toss generally has at least 6 sentries during a push).

If mech was good against protoss I'd never make another marine again..

I kid, but why would marines be nerfed when they are at they're best when a solid micro player handles them properly? It is harder to split than to root w/ fungals, at least from what I've seen in my play and pro play. (I'm terrible at it and it seems pros are having problems=no hope for me).

I don't want this to come off as saying its harder to be a terran because I don't totally think that is true, zerg is very difficult to play, I can't do it at all. I just think when a single unit can create so much chaos inside and outside the game, something needs to be looked at and tested.

So once this is all figured out, what is the next thing that will break the game?


marines broke the game since beta, i mean, the entire forum despised marines (except terrans) to the extent that they even made jokes about it (a marine walks into a bar, and asks where the counter is, to bad there wasn't any).

to split, you just need to be fast. stim backwards so that you have time to separate your marines while siege tanks cover them during the duration in which they split. with practice, splitting gets easy, during marine micro challenges in custom games, ive seen silver league terrans do incredibly good splits, so its not like its impossible.

however, to bridge that gap, infestors are needed so that splitting is more difficult, because honestly, this game is rock, paper, and scissors, and if a rock, paper, or scissors was missing from the game, it would be broken. infestors fix this imbalance, hence why they dont need to be addressed.

in order for the game to be balanced, the terran with perfect marine split has to be on par with a zerg with good fungals, since splitting zerg units exponentially depletes cost effectiveness.

You are right about the time frame. eventually people will figure out that emp will drain infestor energy, that pheonix with gravity beam can render infestors from the back useless, and templars can feedback, instant killing infestors as long as they have at least 80 energy.

Unfortunately people are impatient, and instead of relying on their skill of discovery to find new answers to hard problems, they rely on complete game changes that make the game even more imbalanced, since they themselves still have not found their answer to the problem they originally had.
11/13/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Essex


Incorrect my friend. Massive units crush FF. Also, FF takes a lot more skill than fungal because forcefields require perfect placement.


zerg's only massive ground unit: tier 3 ultra lisk, you serious bro?

lol fungal takes the same skill, point and click where you want it to be.


So much fail in that last statement.

Seriously, casting fungal is a joke, how can anyone actually convince oneself that this spell requires any skill? Specially to compare it to FF, which requires multiple casts to be effective, and one bad cast can end your game(vs T).

Any retard can cast a successful fungal, get over it.
well no sh.. thats like saying scv's cant attack overlords.

forcefield hard counters zerg ground like they always do. it always forces to do unfavorable, therefore terrible engagement, at almost no cost, since forcefield is spamable and only 50 energy. (4 fields per sentry at max level, thats op, considering that toss generally has at least 6 sentries during a push).


Forcefields only affect ground and can be broken.

Fungal affects ground and air, does damage, roots, and can't be broken. They can't be compared.

The powerhouse of the late game zerg is 2/3 air and can't be affected by forcefield.

They are not comparable.


zerg's only massive ground unit: tier 3 ultra lisk, you serious bro?

lol fungal takes the same skill, point and click where you want it to be.


So much fail in that last statement.

Seriously, casting fungal is a joke, how can anyone actually convince oneself that this spell requires any skill? Specially to compare it to FF, which requires multiple casts to be effective, and one bad cast can end your game(vs T).

Any retard can cast a successful fungal, get over it.


and any competant protoss that has their finger held on 'f' key can spam click forcefield where ever they see fit.

there is a reason why fungal is 75 energy compared to forcefield 50 energy. infestors can only hold 2 maximum, while sentry can hold 4 maximum. obviously you can spam forcefields and still hold combat effectiveness. zerg only has 2 chances to land good hits compared to your 4, so in reality, its all the same since you may or may not miss forcefields.

however, any precision movement and accuracy with the mouse knows that 4 chances to land something is always better than 2 chances to land something.

perhaps you need to get over it.
marines broke the game since beta, i mean, the entire forum despised marines (except terrans) to the extent that they even made jokes about it (a marine walks into a bar, and asks where the counter is, to bad there wasn't any).

to split, you just need to be fast. stim backwards so that you have time to separate your marines while siege tanks cover them during the duration in which they split. with practice, splitting gets easy, during marine micro challenges in custom games, ive seen silver league terrans do incredibly good splits, so its not like its impossible.

however, to bridge that gap, infestors are needed so that splitting is more difficult, because honestly, this game is rock, paper, and scissors, and if a rock, paper, or scissors was missing from the game, it would be broken. infestors fix this imbalance, hence why they dont need to be addressed.

in order for the game to be balanced, the terran with perfect marine split has to be on par with a zerg with good fungals, since splitting zerg units exponentially depletes cost effectiveness.

You are right about the time frame. eventually people will figure out that emp will drain infestor energy, that pheonix with gravity beam can render infestors from the back useless, and templars can feedback, instant killing infestors as long as they have at least 80 energy.

Unfortunately people are impatient, and instead of relying on their skill of discovery to find new answers to hard problems, they rely on complete game changes that make the game even more imbalanced, since they themselves still have not found their answer to the problem they originally had.


Marine splitting is in NO way simple. The apm required to keep marines alive at higher levels is insane. It's around 300+ Apm which is a ton and that is no easy feed. The marine literally fits the perfect starcraft unit, a weak unit with high dps but basically glass cannosn HOWEVER with great micro it becomes a dangerous unit because of the skill of the user. Basically a unit that gets better with the skill of a player, a great starcraft unit unfortuantly they only added the marine with this feature. Both the zealot and ling is a-move which is why there isn't much we can do except hope we don't get caught with players that know how to split.

well no sh.. thats like saying scv's cant attack overlords.

forcefield hard counters zerg ground like they always do. it always forces to do unfavorable, therefore terrible engagement, at almost no cost, since forcefield is spamable and only 50 energy. (4 fields per sentry at max level, thats op, considering that toss generally has at least 6 sentries during a push).


Also what? Force fields can be delt with in a matter of ways and is far far far different from fungal. Forcefield does not affect burrowed units, burrowed units can escape, does not affect flying units, can be destroyed by massive units and most of all DOES NO DAMAGE at all. Not only that but 1 forcefield is useless, you need multiple to attack zerg, 1 sentry with 1 forcefield won't change anything at all unless the zerg is trying to push up a tiny ramp which means he's terrible for attacking at a choke point. That's like me complaining chargelots died when I made them run single file up a ramp against terran.

Fungal dominates air, burrowed, reveals cloaked, Massive units are also affected by it. I mean how the hell are you comparing these two spells? One stops everything, roots it may I add and to add insult to injury does pretty good damage with all it's current features. So I don't know why people are trying to compare these two spells now.
marines broke the game since beta, i mean, the entire forum despised marines (except terrans) to the extent that they even made jokes about it (a marine walks into a bar, and asks where the counter is, to bad there wasn't any).

to split, you just need to be fast. stim backwards so that you have time to separate your marines while siege tanks cover them during the duration in which they split. with practice, splitting gets easy, during marine micro challenges in custom games, ive seen silver league terrans do incredibly good splits, so its not like its impossible.

however, to bridge that gap, infestors are needed so that splitting is more difficult, because honestly, this game is rock, paper, and scissors, and if a rock, paper, or scissors was missing from the game, it would be broken. infestors fix this imbalance, hence why they dont need to be addressed.

in order for the game to be balanced, the terran with perfect marine split has to be on par with a zerg with good fungals, since splitting zerg units exponentially depletes cost effectiveness.

You are right about the time frame. eventually people will figure out that emp will drain infestor energy, that pheonix with gravity beam can render infestors from the back useless, and templars can feedback, instant killing infestors as long as they have at least 80 energy.

Unfortunately people are impatient, and instead of relying on their skill of discovery to find new answers to hard problems, they rely on complete game changes that make the game even more imbalanced, since they themselves still have not found their answer to the problem they originally had.


Marine splitting is in NO way simple. The apm required to keep marines alive at higher levels is insane. It's around 300+ Apm which is a ton and that is no easy feed. The marine literally fits the perfect starcraft unit, a weak unit with high dps but basically glass cannosn HOWEVER with great micro it becomes a dangerous unit because of the skill of the user. Basically a unit that gets better with the skill of a player, a great starcraft unit unfortuantly they only added the marine with this feature. Both the zealot and ling is a-move which is why there isn't much we can do except hope we don't get caught with players that know how to split.

well no sh.. thats like saying scv's cant attack overlords.

forcefield hard counters zerg ground like they always do. it always forces to do unfavorable, therefore terrible engagement, at almost no cost, since forcefield is spamable and only 50 energy. (4 fields per sentry at max level, thats op, considering that toss generally has at least 6 sentries during a push).


Also what? Force fields can be delt with in a matter of ways and is far far far different from fungal. Forcefield does not affect burrowed units, burrowed units can escape, does not affect flying units, can be destroyed by massive units and most of all DOES NO DAMAGE at all. Not only that but 1 forcefield is useless, you need multiple to attack zerg, 1 sentry with 1 forcefield won't change anything at all unless the zerg is trying to push up a tiny ramp which means he's terrible for attacking at a choke point. That's like me complaining chargelots died when I made them run single file up a ramp against terran.

Fungal dominates air, burrowed, reveals cloaked, Massive units are also affected by it. I mean how the hell are you comparing these two spells? One stops everything, roots it may I add and to add insult to injury does pretty good damage with all it's current features. So I don't know why people are trying to compare these two spells now.


it does theoretical damage, and forcefields in large numbers does stop everything. you ever see a zerg go in for a ground attack, and get utterly denied by spammed forcefields? It happens all the time in PvZ.

Also, protoss has very good all-round anti air stalker, so protoss doesnt need that much emphasis on anti air. against mutas, pheonix and archon do fine.

compared to zerg, zerg anti air units are impractical on the ground level, and too expensive to maintain on the aerial level.

and how many zerg units can go underground and move away at the same time? only 2.
, and protoss is almost always guaranteed detection before they move out.

hence, forcefield is comparable.


So much fail in that last statement.

Seriously, casting fungal is a joke, how can anyone actually convince oneself that this spell requires any skill? Specially to compare it to FF, which requires multiple casts to be effective, and one bad cast can end your game(vs T).

Any retard can cast a successful fungal, get over it.


and any competant protoss that has their finger held on 'f' key can spam click forcefield where ever they see fit.

there is a reason why fungal is 75 energy compared to forcefield 50 energy. infestors can only hold 2 maximum, while sentry can hold 4 maximum. obviously you can spam forcefields and still hold combat effectiveness. zerg only has 2 chances to land good hits compared to your 4, so in reality, its all the same since you may or may not miss forcefields.

however, any precision movement and accuracy with the mouse knows that 4 chances to land something is always better than 2 chances to land something.

perhaps you need to get over it.


There is no "chance" at hand here....you hit "F", you click on enemy units, BAM, fungaled, you can now a-click your army into it or continue to spam chain fungal, and said army slowly dies to your 3apm "skill".

FF does no damage, affects only ground, and doesn't negate any unit abilities.
And its ability to trap units is entirely related to your speed and skill to cast it properly, while anyone with half a brain cell can trap a whole army with fungal, which roots in 1 cast, deals damage, reveals cloak/burrow, denies abilities, roots air units, lmao.

Absurdly retarded comparison, infestors are totally overpowered and require minimal skill to use them, deal with it.
t does theoretical damage, and forcefields in large numbers does stop everything. you ever see a zerg go in for a ground attack, and get utterly denied by spammed forcefields? It happens all the time in PvZ.

Also, protoss has very good all-round anti air stalker, so protoss doesnt need that much emphasis on anti air. against mutas, pheonix and archon do fine.

compared to zerg, zerg anti air units are impractical on the ground level, and too expensive to maintain on the aerial level.

and how many zerg units can go underground and move away at the same time? only 2.
, and protoss is almost always guaranteed detection before they move out.

hence, forcefield is comparable.


No they are not compareable. That was not at all a comparisons, You basically just said take out all the differences from forcefield and fungal and now they are compareable. Even with the detection comment, What?

Spamming forcefields doesn't matter if they have ultras,Air,or can burrow. The point isn't that you can simply say "Protoss doesn't need any help with air" doesn't matter. The point is the spell isn't comparable because they do completely different things. And one doesn't do damage. One roots everything, Air,ground,cloaked,burrowed,and massive. The other only is good with ground and can be dodged by burrowing. It doesn't matter if you only have 2 units that can do that because guess what? Those 2 units are the most used(Roaches and infestors) in all of the zerg matchups.

Also Forcefield doesn't stop spells, fungal literally breaks blink and stops most spells from being casted.I don't know how the hell your comparing these spells just literally label them out if you want to tell the difference.

Fungal
- 1 Fungal
-Snares Air Units
-Snares massive units
-Snares and reveals Cloaked Units
-Snares burrowed units
-Does 40/30 Damage
-Stop's micro such as not allowed to move and disables spells like blink

Forcefields -
- Creates a Wall to wall or funnel units
- Can be broken by massive
- Does not Affect Air
- Does not Affect Cloaked
- Does not Affect burrowed and can be dodged with burrowed units
- Units in forcefields can still be moved and can burrow away(With tunneling claws)
- Does not disable spells such as blink or fungal
- Does no damage.

Looking at this list, I have no idea how you say they are comparable. At all. They are significantly different and while forcefield contains 1 element of fungal, fungal has over 5 different ones and they actually STOP units, even if you forcefield 5 roaches in a ball of fields, You can still burrow under. You can still do things to get away. Them having detection does NOT change that. The point is you can actually get away, Fungal growth doesn't allow you to do anything, it is literally like the mouse and keyboard are frozen for 4 seconds. Not even spells work when fungaled, so again. No you cannot compare these to spells.
11/13/2012 04:01 PMPosted by Essex
terran doesnt need marines against toss


roflmfao
t does theoretical damage, and forcefields in large numbers does stop everything. you ever see a zerg go in for a ground attack, and get utterly denied by spammed forcefields? It happens all the time in PvZ.

Also, protoss has very good all-round anti air stalker, so protoss doesnt need that much emphasis on anti air. against mutas, pheonix and archon do fine.

compared to zerg, zerg anti air units are impractical on the ground level, and too expensive to maintain on the aerial level.

and how many zerg units can go underground and move away at the same time? only 2.
, and protoss is almost always guaranteed detection before they move out.

hence, forcefield is comparable.


No they are not compareable. That was not at all a comparisons, You basically just said take out all the differences from forcefield and fungal and now they are compareable. Even with the detection comment, What?

Spamming forcefields doesn't matter if they have ultras,Air,or can burrow. The point isn't that you can simply say "Protoss doesn't need any help with air" doesn't matter. The point is the spell isn't comparable because they do completely different things. And one doesn't do damage. One roots everything, Air,ground,cloaked,burrowed,and massive. The other only is good with ground and can be dodged by burrowing. It doesn't matter if you only have 2 units that can do that because guess what? Those 2 units are the most used(Roaches and infestors) in all of the zerg matchups.

Also Forcefield doesn't stop spells, fungal literally breaks blink and stops most spells from being casted.I don't know how the hell your comparing these spells just literally label them out if you want to tell the difference.

Fungal
- 1 Fungal
-Snares Air Units
-Snares massive units
-Snares and reveals Cloaked Units
-Snares burrowed units
-Does 40/30 Damage
-Stop's micro such as not allowed to move and disables spells like blink

Forcefields -
- Creates a Wall to wall or funnel units
- Can be broken by massive
- Does not Affect Air
- Does not Affect Cloaked
- Does not Affect burrowed and can be dodged with burrowed units
- Units in forcefields can still be moved and can burrow away(With tunneling claws)
- Does not disable spells such as blink or fungal
- Does no damage.

Looking at this list, I have no idea how you say they are comparable. At all. They are significantly different and while forcefield contains 1 element of fungal, fungal has over 5 different ones and they actually STOP units, even if you forcefield 5 roaches in a ball of fields, You can still burrow under. You can still do things to get away. Them having detection does NOT change that. The point is you can actually get away, Fungal growth doesn't allow you to do anything, it is literally like the mouse and keyboard are frozen for 4 seconds. Not even spells work when fungaled, so again. No you cannot compare these to spells.


Indeed.

Essex = pwned
11/13/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Essex
as a diamond zerg player, I'll be happy to trade a nerf for the infestor so that marines and forcefield get a major nerf.

Forcefields and Marines are crucial to the early game, while Infestors are not. Inaccurate cross comparison.
are you mentally challenged?
11/13/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Derpy
+1

-2
Was playing some ladder earlier as zerg, may just be a lowly silver/gold but I just fungal'd my way through an entire protoss army of blink stalkers and immortals going huehuehue. If I ran the same number of marines or sentries in there, I think I might've gotten crushed.
+1
11/14/2012 07:35 AMPosted by Doncroft
as a diamond zerg player, I'll be happy to trade a nerf for the infestor so that marines and forcefield get a major nerf.

Forcefields and Marines are crucial to the early game, while Infestors are not. Inaccurate cross comparison.


Infestors are lair tech, therefore they don't even exist in the early game.

Infestors ARE essential to defend a Zerg's base and army from mid game aggression (most of the time) and absolutely necessary as support for Hive tech/T3 units.
Infestors are lair tech, therefore they don't even exist in the early game.

Infestors ARE essential to defend a Zerg's base and army from mid game aggression (most of the time) and absolutely necessary as support for Hive tech/T3 units.


Exactly marines != Infestors

but blizzard wants to make infestors stay the same Mid-game, the problem is late-game, their used in masses and that's where they really shine, especially with broodlords.
O Lord another Essex thread.
Why or why do people feed this guy?
How is that trade working out for you OP? Has reality hit you square in the face yet?

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