To toss, on how to get an imba comp vs Z late

General Discussion
Watch Rain vs Killer, Game 2. The way he harasses and uses recall to buy time for an ultimate carrier/void/templar/mothership army is really something to watch. Killer had the "ultimate" Z army combination, but at the end he can't do anything vs Rain's army.
Nah... More like Killer overmade Broodlords and miscontrolled infestors.

Rain won, but got a lucky timing window to be able to MAKE enough Carriers AND land money storms/vortexes.
Rain only had time because Kill literally threw away like 5 Broodlords by being completely stupid with positioning when he was assaulting the 4th in the southeast corner.

Rain was also vastly better by completely zoning out Corruptors with Psi Storms that apparently "did zero damage (come on announcers)" while sniping units with superior range.
Only 1 is Korean that's the only race that matters. No life or hyung in tournement sen representing for the zergies
Great, so all you have to do is be arguably the best player in the world against a really, really mediocre foreigner to beat infestor/BL.
Great, so all you have to do is be arguably the best player in the world against a really, really mediocre foreigner to beat infestor/BL.


... or just try to imitate some part of his style. Who even TRIES to play like Rain does? Obviously his multitask is superb, but plenty of toss can imitate the harass style he plays to a certain degree. Zergs have played like this for ages before BL/infestor became popular, back when the P deathball was considered imba.

Also we're probably looking at a all toss ZvP. Should I start crying P imba now?
Even pure corruptors would have decimated rains army. Killer just had like 20 broodlords that had nothing to attack other than 3 colossus.
carrier/void/templar/mothership is almost uncounterable by Z unless P gets very very very sloppy with his micro.

Storms from the templars make IT spams useless, 4-6 archons and voids wreck corruptors, and carriers just !*%*%#*@ everything.
11/17/2012 10:23 PMPosted by Defenestratr
Who even TRIES to play like Rain does?
Every good Protoss on the ladder actually... It is FAR from new. You should hop on to the Protoss forums more often.

It is a known fact that Protoss HAS to outmaneuver lategame Zerg with prisms to slow them down enough to REACH 5 stargate Carrier + Mothership + either 9-10 Templar/2 Colossi + VR support, or mass Archons with 4-5 High Templar.

11/17/2012 10:29 PMPosted by stephead
carrier/void/templar/mothership is almost uncounterable by Z
Not true. All you need is 30-40 Infestors and a handful of corruptors + a handful of Broodlords...
I always lose to !@#$ty zerg compositions collosus carriers mother ship vortex and arcons and I still lost to a less skilled infestor broodlord curropter army. I didn't have void rays though.
... or just try to imitate some part of his style. Who even TRIES to play like Rain does?


Uh, Archon Templar Carrier Mothership against Zerg Deathball has been known forever. Zerg will just never let you get that critical mass of Carriers you need, because they usually just push out and kill you after winning the initial encounter in a landslide.
Every good Protoss on the ladder actually... It is FAR from new. You should hop on to the Protoss forums more often.


Um... yeah, you're right, all toss's have their mothership sit at home for defense and use recall on their void rays for harass. Of course the warp prism play isn't original, but the way Rain uses multipronged attacks to abuse the immobility of the zerg army was pretty unique - I haven't seen anyone use the combination of warp prism, small army attacks, and recall.

11/17/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Omega
Uh, Archon Templar Carrier Mothership against Zerg Deathball has been known forever. Zerg will just never let you get that critical mass of Carriers you need, because they usually just push out and kill you after winning the initial encounter in a landslide.


And why was Rain able to do it? Because he harassed effectively while holding a defensive advantage and controlled his army well. The biggest argument in PvZ is that this army comp is impossible to attain unless P is ahead. With his style though, Rain did it in what was basically an even game.

There're more options for P to explore in the matchup. You can see protosses starting to figure out various ways of dealing with BL/infestor in the way that the Koreans are playing the midlate/late game in these games, with Rain leading the pack.
And why was Rain able to do it?


Because he was MUCH better than his opponent, which was the original argument.

Take Killer out, put a Korean Code S level Zerg in his shoes, and see if Rain can get that much time to make a transition that expensive and time consuming
11/17/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Defenestratr
Um... yeah, you're right, all toss's have their mothership sit at home for defense and use recall on their void rays for harass.
That was a particular tactical move to help with warp-prism harass and to snipe that Greater spire. That was a specific tactic particular to THAT map and THAT situation...

You DON'T EVER get lategame Void Rays due to Infestors. You only get them as a tactical strike unit as was shown by Rain.

Mothership Recall on zealot/Archon multi-pronged attacks is common; more common than you are assuming.

11/17/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Defenestratr
but the way Rain uses multipronged attacks to abuse the immobility of the zerg army was pretty unique
Wrong. It is common for lategame Protosses to use Prism play like that; usually there are 2 prisms warping in DTs or zealots or doing zealot drops + HT storm drops. Nothing new.

11/17/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Defenestratr
I haven't seen anyone use the combination of warp prism, small army attacks, and recall.
That just shows how little PvZ experience you have. It does not mean Protosses don't do this as a staple; they actually do.

11/17/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Defenestratr
The biggest argument in PvZ is that this army comp is impossible to attain unless P is ahead.
It is a true argument, and was true in this game as well; Killer was just sloppy with his control and gave Rain WAAAY too much time and had SEVERAL opportunities to kill Rain that he MISSED.

To get to that army comp, Rain played correctly to buy time. Even when you have more economy than Zerg, you STILL have to buy time to get Carriers out because Protoss is SO DEAD if caught by a frontal attack in between transitioning to 5 stargate Carriers.
11/17/2012 11:15 PMPosted by Anesthetic
Forumers dont know how to use blink stalker mobility and/or warp prisms.
I am not sure I agree there... I think we have some high level players use prism play and mobility quite well. Pros are obviously better at it, but I have seen some GMs and Mid and High Masters use Prism play and abuse mobility quite well before.
11/17/2012 11:15 PMPosted by Anesthetic
. Zerg will just never let you get that critical mass of Carriers you need, because they usually just push out and kill you after winning the initial encounter in a landslide.


Forumers dont know how to use blink stalker mobility and/or warp prisms.


Maybe not Forumers, but definitely GSL code S contenders. We have many instances of transition to 5 Stargate Carrier failed by Genius, MC, etc while they weren't in their slump because the zerg will be constantly attacking your expansions to make sure your income stays low.

In today's game between Killer and Rain. We saw that
1.Rain lost a major engagement in the middle of the map against Winfestlords
2.Killer pushed a small group of ~ 10 Lings (or Roaches, I forgot) into the Southeast 4th base of Rain. The ground units running in front to snipe the unguarded Nexus.
3.Rain sent in a group of Blink Stalkers and completely destroy 5-6 Broodlords while losing almost nothing.
4.Killer tries to recover from that while building up his "i win" army. While Rain distracts him by dropping in the main 2-3 times with Chargelots and freeing up supplies intelligently by trading his Stalker/Archon army with Killer's northwest base, repeatedly.
5.After the 5 stargate Carrier process is complete, Rain intelligently zoned out Corruptors with Psi Storm, while sniping Infestors with Feedbacks, while bursting down Broodlords with Interceptor burst damage. He would retreat after the sniping is done so his High Templar can recover energy.
6.Killer finally breaks down

This entire process took about 15 minute of in game time, almost 80% of a regular game. If you don't have massive skill gaps, that game would not have lasted that long after Rain loses miserably in the middle of the map.
11/17/2012 10:31 PMPosted by Omega
... or just try to imitate some part of his style. Who even TRIES to play like Rain does?


Uh, Archon Templar Carrier Mothership against Zerg Deathball has been known forever. Zerg will just never let you get that critical mass of Carriers you need, because they usually just push out and kill you after winning the initial encounter in a landslide.


If you're losing to BL Infestor in the intial encounter in a landslide - you're doing something wrong, you probably 3 base all inn'd without doing enough harassment damage therefore allowing the Zerg to hit his hive timing unhindered.

The problem with the MU isn't that P deathballs or Z deathballs are overpowered, it's that past the first 9-14 minutes of the game its a boring and predictable game of turtling and rushing to late game. If you choose the avoid the late game by all inning and losing, the probleming isn't zerg, it's you.
That just shows how little PvZ experience you have. It does not mean Protosses don't do this as a staple; they actually do.


Seriously, what are you talking about? Can you actually point out some games where toss uses recall to do anything in recent times? 99.9% of toss save up all their energy for vortex. I watch a tremendous amount of pro PvZ and I play a lot of it as well at a masters level. If you don't believe me, just ask Mr. Bitter, who said himself that he'd like to see more recall play. Casters make a lot of miscalls, but I'm pretty sure he watches more PvZ than you do.

And of course drop play is common; but how often do you see drop play with 1/2 warp prisms AND small armies being sent to deal with a 4th/5th base? This is very common for Zerg to do, but only in this tourney have I seen it used by toss. And the damage Killer took from all the drop/harass play means he could not have resupplied his army, which he probably would have lost if he had gone for a frontal attack.

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