Fast third PvZ?

Protoss Discussion
01/14/2013 03:22 PMPosted by hellokitty
you'll lose late game if you dont play greedy when you need to
I don't deny that; I do however question when you take calculated risks and try to pass it as "standard" timing for PvZ macro play.
You can take a 3rd off 1 gate but requires good sim city and Canon placement. I wouldn't suggest taking a fast 3rd on maps that make 3rd hard to cover like antiga or condemned. 4 gate robo being the safest build to take a 3rd.
01/14/2013 07:52 PMPosted by ComradEX
You can take a 3rd off 1 gate but requires good sim city and Canon placement. I wouldn't suggest taking a fast 3rd on maps that make 3rd hard to cover like antiga or condemned. 4 gate robo being the safest build to take a 3rd.

safest is 6 gate robo twilight
01/14/2013 06:36 PMPosted by TechNo
He doesn't need to support his claim because anyone who plays or understand high level sc2 knows these to be well-known builds.
High level play does not mean taking stupid risks, which invalidates your premise. If the Zerg is playing GREEDY, that's the only time you can do that 3 base off 1 gate. If Zerg is not doing aggression off 3 base, that's when 4 gate robo into very early 3rd works, otherwise you get your butt handed to you like Leenock did to Oz (who did exactly that opening strategy) last MLG... 3 base Infestor/roach/ling walks all over this build.

4 gate Robo 3rd works against stephano style (barely) or pure roach/ling aggression on 3 base. Otherwise, Mutas, Infestors or even Hydras work very strongly against this.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=342021
http://www.gosubuilds.com/protoss-build-orders-2/protoss-vs-zerg/pvz-4-gate-robo/
http://www.starcraft2strategy.com/pvz/item/22-pvz-fast-3rd-into-4gate-robo
Thank you.

First link: assumes stephano style or mass roach/ling (and no tech). Not standard.
2nd Link:

This build keeps you safe from any big roach attacks, while allowing you to take an early third and macro up


Nuff said.

3rd link:

If the Zerg player is instead going Mutalisks, you are in a good position, due to your fast third.
LOL? Um, no? If the Zerg goes muta on 3 base, you have no Twilight Council, not even NEARLY close to enough gates to make Stalkers, and you are very far from Templar tech. The BEST you could try is to get cannons excessively everywhere, and hope the Zerg turns around while you scramble your butt to get blink and Templar... You die the moment you lose probes, even with 3 nexuses, because you won't be able to afford tech in time if you are chronoing out probes.

Maybe you should find actually solid builds that do not rely on Zerg being bad or too greedy.

@ hellokitty, your being in GM means that you face greedy Zergs all the time and you exploit them by going 3 base off 1 gate or 4 gate robo 3rd, but you know that that's the only reason these builds work... Against a standard Zerg who goes for 3 base Infestor roach, Leenock style, or Curious style Ling infestor, your 3 bases won't hold because you have no tech or you have too few tech units to matter... This is NOT standard for 3 base Protoss play.

That's my point. It is a good niche strategy that will punish greedy Zergs that you scout, but you won't have ANY advantage over a standard 3 base teching Zerg.
Anytime you're going for a fast third you must have exquisite timings down. Which is why I don't think I'd recommend for my fellow low league players.

In lower leagues you can't cut nearly as many corners due to lack of good macro players, and lack of skill in not only play but also reading the game. (no offense OP). The presence of a third hatch has fooled me multiple times into thinking 3 base play only to have a baneling bust come in at the 8 minute mark.

Sidenote: Also, while i respect any grandmaster or masters level player, I do not think they are above question. Specifically because something obvious to a GM may be less obvious to a lower level player and thus they may do something blindly, when the GM did it much less blindly. Furthermore, great player =/= great coach. great coach =/= great player. So to the OP, make sure you listen to all sides and wade past the insults and pissing contests. There more than one way to skin cat.
01/15/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Zamara
@ hellokitty, your being in GM means that you face greedy Zergs all the time


01/15/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Zamara
but you know that that's the only reason these builds work...


Since you know so much about the game you should tell these GM zergs how to beat 4gate robo expand, since apparently they don't know how? These GM zergs must be bad for this build to work eh? You know better, I'm sure.

I don't even know what you mean by "greedy zerg". It's all pretty standard up to the point they see you take a third (yes they will see you take a third), at that point they will decide whether they want to attack you now, max out and attack you later with infestors, or expand and tech hard. So tell me with you vast knowledge what is the difference between "greedy zerg" and standard? And why can't these GM zergs figure out how to beat this build that you say can be easily killed (but have never done).

I can't even take you seriously, you didn't even know what a 4 gate robo expand was. You thought it was a 1 base build. It is hard to argue with someone with such a low understanding of high level play who values their opinion over high masters and GM players, while being afraid to post on your actual account in fear of the league card being used on your theorycrafting. Do you even play this game?
You're grasping at straws now, TechNo, and you're not even focusing on the core argument anymore. It just looks like you're having anger issues and you're taking them out on me... The argument's been done a long time ago.

You better calm down or you will get reported.

EDIT:

Case in point:
01/15/2013 09:11 PMPosted by TechNo
I don't even know what you mean by "greedy zerg".


Also:

01/15/2013 09:11 PMPosted by TechNo
you didn't even know what a 4 gate robo expand was.
Incorrect. I knew what it was, but the way kitty worded it sounded really strange and I was bound to question such a poorly worded statement; when I realized what he was referring to, I immediately knew it wasn't a standard strategy either. Seriously, you need to understand what you're reading and not just jump to conclusions.
01/15/2013 09:15 PMPosted by Zamara
You better calm down or you will get reported.


Go for it if it makes you feel better. I don't see why I'd get reported anyways but ok.

How come GM zergs don't know how to stop this build but you do?

I'm really curious what you believe to be the difference between a standard zerg and a greedy zerg.
Go for it if it makes you feel better. I don't see why I'd get reported anyways but ok.

How come GM zergs don't know how to stop this build but you do?

I'm really curious what you believe to be the difference between a standard zerg and a greedy zerg.
If you actually read my posts, you'd already have your answer. The builds are dependent on the Zerg being greedy = more drones, less units at a certain point in time where the build can be punished by a standard tech 3 base Zerg.

If you cannot understand something this simple, and it seems like kitty already knows what I am talking about, then the issue isn't the GM level zergs, but your limited understanding. On top of that, you choose every opportunity you get to be aggressive with me without me actually saying anything offensive to you; that's the reason you will be reported if you continue.
01/15/2013 10:31 PMPosted by Zamara
The builds are dependent on the Zerg being greedy = more drones,


More drones at what point though? By 8 minutes zerg will be using all his larva on making drones anyways if he doesn't scout a 4 gate coming. There is pretty much no variation before the 8 minute mark unless he is deviating from standard or preparing for early agression. If he sees you expand at 8 mintues he will decide whether he wants to attack you now, max out and attack you later with infestors, or expand immediately and tech hard. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

"More drones" isn't an answer. What is he delaying to make these drones before the 8 minute mark? How much is there to forgo in this short time? How many units does a standard zerg have at 8 minutes seeing no pressure?

01/15/2013 10:31 PMPosted by Zamara
but your limited understanding


What league are you in again?
The metagame is different at his level. Minigun had shown time and time that you can take a 3rd off 1 gate and he will even be more greeding teching to double forge with twlight so his upgrades will be far better. At his level, the zergs are VERY greedy. If you watch all the good zerg streamers such as Suppy, Scarlett, and Kane their immediate response to fast 3rds are going for 4th and quick tech to hive(11:00). At my level mid-high master, I just play bad zergs that just go stephano style whether I took a fast 3rd or if I'm 2 base all-ining and pray they win with mass lings and roaches. Point I'm trying to make is at his level its better for the Zerg to be greedy, mass infestors, mass spines, and aim for the lategame so they will get away with taking a fast 3rd off 1 gate except for maps that aren't viable for it like antiga shipyard.
At his level, the zergs are VERY greedy. If you watch all the good zerg streamers such as Suppy, Scarlett, and Kane their immediate response to fast 3rds are going for 4th and quick tech to hive(11:00).


Exactly. Good zergs know that they are better off preparing for the late game to get their ultimate army than going all-in and risking not killing the third.
01/15/2013 10:46 PMPosted by TechNo
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
I completely understand; you don't. If you actually take time to read my posts you'd shut up about this already. How mind-boggling is it that greedy Zerg play is NOT "standard"? It is GREEDY. It can be punished, either directly or INdirectly. The latter is the case for 1 gate 3 base and 4 gate robo.

Over-droning is nothing new, and a Zerg seeing a protoss call the Zerg's greed pushes him to make a choice:

Take another base to stay ahead in economy and production, or try to punish the Protoss for taking such an early 3rd with relatively no defense.

A standard tech Zerg will basically halt droning earlier and start making units much sooner than a greedy Zerg can, and because he teched, his units will be of the Roach/Infestor kind with which he can attack and punish a 4 Gate Robo.

I can assure you that Oz is a much higher level player than kitty here. And Leenock is much higher than random GM Zergs. So, is Curious. The FLAW in the opening strategy of getting 3 bases off 4 gates and a Robo is that a tech Zerg will just crush it with a big attack. There will be no colossi, no storm or HTs for feedback, and no Mothership or Archons to help defend, and the most the Protoss can muster is Sentries, Immortals, and BARELY blink Stalkers, vs Infestors and Roaches.

I think I just explained how a GM Zerg can beat kitty's strategy, because I raised him the strategy of a pro.

Minigun had shown time and time that you can take a 3rd off 1 gate and he will even be more greeding teching to double forge with twlight so his upgrades will be far better. At his level, the zergs are VERY greedy.
See? The KEY to this strategy even WORKING is greed of the Zerg. If the Zerg plays safe, you're utterly effed.

This is not standard PvZ, and should not be touted as such.

Period.

FOTM strategies are nice and all, but when you're talking about standard play, I expect you guys to at least use some common sense and not include niche strategies that rely on Zerg greed.

01/15/2013 10:46 PMPosted by TechNo
What league are you in again?
None of your concern?

You don't know what you're talking about TechNo, and I called you on it. No need to get upset/angry over it. I already warned you why.
01/15/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Zamara
You don't know what you're talking about TechNo, and I called you on it.


Yeah you sure showed me. I'll think twice next time before I question your high level experience.

Don't waste time on me though! You should be coaching top GM and pro zergs like Scarlett, Suppy, and Kane who don't know how to easily kill a toss that takes a fast 3rd.

01/15/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Zamara
None of your concern?


Sorry for questioning your actual experience at sc2 and whether you actually play or not. My bad.

01/15/2013 11:20 PMPosted by Zamara
I already warned you why.


Please don't report me (even though I didn't say anything reportable) :(((
01/15/2013 11:40 PMPosted by TechNo
You should be coaching top GM and pro zergs like Scarlett, Suppy, and Kane
Or maybe they can learn from GSL CHAMPION FXOLeenock on how to actually play Zerg at his level...you know?

01/15/2013 11:40 PMPosted by TechNo
Please don't report me (even though I didn't say anything reportable) :(((
Harassment is bannable offense. Keep it in mind.
01/15/2013 11:43 PMPosted by Zamara
Or maybe they can learn from GSL CHAMPION FXOLeenock on how to actually play Zerg at his level...you know?


Well in that case you should tell Scarlett, Suppy, and Kane anyways since they seem to have missed the memo.

I mean after all, Leenock beat Oz's fast 3 base with a strategy once. Therefore that strategy must always crush it right? We can ignore the fact that Oz has been slumping for a long time and Leenock is probably a top 3 zerg in the world if you want.

01/15/2013 11:43 PMPosted by Zamara
Harassment is bannable offense.


Care to quote where I "harassed" you and should be banned for it?
01/15/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Zamara
High level play does not mean taking stupid risks

Actually at high level they take do take risk and they arent stupid by no means. If u watch PartinG, he will HUGE risk such as blind nexus first pvz and in pvt go for fast 3rd b4 his 2nd and 3rd gateway and pvp no probe scout 1 or 2 gate expand. But with high risk comes with high reward in sc2 and you cant play too safe because you will be far behind vs greedy play kinda like 1 gate expand vs 2 gate robo expand in pvt.

01/15/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Zamara
If Zerg is not doing aggression off 3 base, that's when 4 gate robo into very early 3rd works, otherwise you get your butt handed to you like Leenock did to Oz (who did exactly that opening strategy) last MLG...

If your're talking about MLG dallas then I watch remember watching all the games and Oz never went for a 3rd off 1 gate. I watch Oz alot and he is one of my top 5 favorite players but his pvz isnt his best. He tends to favor zealots over blink stalker which Leenock can easily exploit with roach infestor. Oz played 1 game on NA server on his stream vs Jookto and lost. Oz is a code s korean while Jookto barley competes in GSL. Minigun has a positive record vs Jookto using the very greedy style he uses.

And Leenock is much higher than random GM Zergs. So, is Curious.

We are talking about Suppy, Scarlett, and Kane. If Scarlett is beating players like Liquid Hero, Bomber, DangraeGu and Ryung in a bo3 or a bo5 then she can definently be regardes as a top tier zerg. Suppy barely gets beat by players like liquid hero or PartinG in a bo5. Kane doesnt compete in tournaments much but is always consisently being top 16 gm and rank 1 gm this season and last season and has beaten high level korean players like Creatorprime in playhem in a bo5. Just shows you that these top 16 grandmasters arent too far off from koreans.

Zamara you seemed smart and I didnt have a problem with you remaning anonymous up until this point. You disagreeing that a protoss cannot take a fast 3rd off 1 gate questions me if you play at high level or not. I'm really curious as to how good you really are.
http://www.twitch.tv/colminigun/

Focuses on macro style of Protoss play. Lots of good information here if you watch the streams or vods.

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