So the 4-gate to diamond thing

Protoss Discussion
Post Limit:
Based on a "papercut" comment that you could do nothing but 4-gate to diamond, thought I'd play a bunch of 4-gates against every race.

Starting from a high gold league account (off-racing on a bad laptop), my record tonight is 13-7 with the 4-gate taking me from low gold in points to rank #1 plat (facing roughly one Gold, 1 diamond, the rest plat). A couple matches I screwed up so badly I just bailed before the 4G: I think twice in PvP I forgot to get gas, so I just 1G expanded and won because... scouting?

Ok couple comments:
#1 Wtf
#2 It really shouldn't work against Terran at all. But since there were only like 4 and 2 were really terrible, I went I think 2-3 versus T (One actually worked, and 1 marine-scv all-inned me and lost). In two I was in a decent position half-way through the 4-gate, and could've safely bailed. In one of those I did, but lost anyway because he sniped my obs and so I lost to the stim up the ramp thing. The other I kept in too long and died.
#3 It really shouldn't work against Zerg. I think only once did the 4 gate actually kill the opponent. Most of the games I won, I bailed, macro'ed, and did a 3 base timing attack. This also really shouldn't work, but it did like 3 times. The one diamond I faced slaughtered me.
#4. PvP. Kind of good, strongly winning record. It shouldn't work, but... miss one FF and it easily can. I faced one DT expand build and won because the opp spent too long chasing my units and let me wall off my main and get observers.

So nothing new except I was pretty shocked to take so many wins against Zergs, and those from macroing out of a 4-gate.
Anyway, weird experience. FYI.

EDIT: here's the match history for tonight:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3014462/1/BlueMoonCatD/matches
It shouldn't work against terran bc any good one will have bunkers with mass repair. It may win against zerg... and it'll always work in pvp
01/23/2013 10:05 PMPosted by AllTimeLow
It shouldn't work against terran bc any good one will have bunkers with mass repair. It may win against zerg...


4 gate is far better vs terran than zerg. You can at least hide a 4 gate vs terran.
It's things like this that are really eye opening for just how bad a lot players are even up into diamond or masters. This is also why it's kind of stunning that people complain they can't get out of bronze/silver/gold when 95% of the people in those leagues can't hold a 4-gate.

Terrans just follow their build order and assume a 1-gate expand. A lot of them don't even scout.

Zergs are so used to a FFE that they don't even expect a gateway expand let alone a 4-gate. God forbid they drone scout.

PvP has a lot of builds that rely on not missing a forcefield. Phoenix builds especially. Under pressure a lot of people miss their forcefields or screw up their build order just enough to lose.
Too bad my opponents are smart enough to know how to hold off 4 gates... :( I'd be doing them a lot too, otherwise... :P It helps break the tension of playing a long macro game sometimes, but I don't seem to get lucky enough with opponents that are worse than me :P
01/24/2013 07:46 AMPosted by wraithcube
Terrans just follow their build order and assume a 1-gate expand. A lot of them don't even scout.

Actually, only 1 didn't see it coming because there are a lot of rushes in low leagues. Looking at the replays, I *think* I can consistently kill the natural with a 4-gate in Platinum, but pushing into the main is really dangerous. So I think I'll take your advice and go to Sase's 3 gate pressure to weaken the 2 medivac timing attack and shake things up.

01/24/2013 07:46 AMPosted by wraithcube
Zergs are so used to a FFE that they don't even expect a gateway expand let alone a 4-gate. God forbid they drone scout.

Again, that's not quite what I saw. Only 1 Zerg was caught unaware, which is why my 4 gate didn't actually kill many Zergs straight up. But what I found was that they overreacted so much and got out of their pre-defined build that I could just expand, macro, and attack before BLs. So... in Plat PvZ, 4-gate is a macro build, wtf.

01/24/2013 07:46 AMPosted by wraithcube
PvP has a lot of builds that rely on not missing a forcefield. Phoenix builds especially. Under pressure a lot of people miss their forcefields or screw up their build order just enough to lose.

Yup. Even the ones that locked me out long enough to get an immortal or two out I eventually just beat through micro and moar units.

EDIT: If I do this again, I'll stream it. I think it's educational.
And your 4-gate is probably average at best...

Good players can start warping in at 5:40, it is still pretty tough defend against. Hell, I have problems with 4 gates. Not to mention that if they produce more than 4 sentries, you are basically on equal footing with them and can start macroing your way from failed 4-gateway.

Advice: Best follow up that I know of, that gives you partial chances to win after a failed 4-gate is getting legs and going all zealots. Get enough gas for legs and then stop mining it, focus on minerals and go all zealots.
That's actually pretty interesting that they do see it coming and still fail to defend it or just overreact to it.

Not quite what I would have expected, but still really interesting.

It's like a weird version of the bronze to masters cannon rush streams that are always on twitch
Obviously the build of the 4 gate is important... not missing a chrono.. etc etc... but if you can do that part right (which is easy)... the hardest part is the micro with your first zealot/stalker and getting that probe to his base without dying and sneaking in the proxy pylons.

If you have good control. you will give Master players all they can handle.

If you are crap with your control on these units, then diamonds will smash you.
What time is your first warp-in?
01/24/2013 08:27 AMPosted by papercut
What time is your first warp-in?

I'll have to check the replays, but it's definitely before 6:00.
pretty sick record papercut last season
You can only 4gate to diamond if you have a diamond level 4gate... If you are trying to 4gate to diamond with gold level mechanics, it's not going to work.
01/24/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Rishloo
You can only 4gate to diamond if you have a diamond level 4gate... If you are trying to 4gate to diamond with gold level mechanics, it's not going to work.

True, but... you didn't read much of the thread, did you?
And your 4-gate is probably average at best...

Good players can start warping in at 5:40, it is still pretty tough defend against.

That's about right. If by average, you mean average for high Platinum, which means in the 70-75% percentile of active players in NA (and terrible by the standard of what's possible, or what the top 2% can achieve), yup.

Advice: Best follow up that I know of, that gives you partial chances to win after a failed 4-gate is getting legs and going all zealots. Get enough gas for legs and then stop mining it, focus on minerals and go all zealots.

That's an interesting thought. Honestly, I thought the results of this experiment would be miserable (works 50-60% in PvP against equal opponents, gets slaughtered in other matchups). What I'm really discovering is how true it is that it's not *what* build you choose, but just that you choose one and execute it well, even if the build is terrible (like against Terrans or against modern Zergs that expect a 4-gate off of any 1-base opening).
I'm starting to feel like practing the heck out of 1 and 2 base all-ins would actually be a useful exercise because it allows concentrated time-efficient practice of a well-understood build.
01/24/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Rishloo
You can only 4gate to diamond if you have a diamond level 4gate... If you are trying to 4gate to diamond with gold level mechanics, it's not going to work.

he got a point tho. You CAN four-gate to diamond if you have diamond mechanics.

AND WHO SAID IT AINT GOOD VS ZERG+ TERRAN?

good scouting + deny scout= Collect points.

As long as you not doing a BLIND 4-gate, you should win.
01/24/2013 12:33 PMPosted by BlackAdder
I'm starting to feel like practing the heck out of 1 and 2 base all-ins would actually be a useful exercise because it allows concentrated time-efficient practice of a well-understood build.


This is very much true, and I'd say part of it is knowing when you can capitalize on an opponents weakness to kill them. I've seen a lot of players have a significant lead and let their opponent back into the game because they don't know how to capitalize on an army advantage.

This is part of the reason why nobody would ever say you should get rid of cheese builds :D If you are ahead in army go attack. If you know an all-in will win at that moment there is no reason to not all-in.
It's things like this that are really eye opening for just how bad a lot players are even up into diamond or masters. This is also why it's kind of stunning that people complain they can't get out of bronze/silver/gold when 95% of the people in those leagues can't hold a 4-gate.

Terrans just follow their build order and assume a 1-gate expand. A lot of them don't even scout.

Zergs are so used to a FFE that they don't even expect a gateway expand let alone a 4-gate. God forbid they drone scout.

PvP has a lot of builds that rely on not missing a forcefield. Phoenix builds especially. Under pressure a lot of people miss their forcefields or screw up their build order just enough to lose.


Yes most players are bad, but the reason the 4 gate is so strong is because its shockingly easy to execute and is quite strong. As Zamara says its hard for him to pull off because his opponents are quite good, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the build itself is quite good. I find that Protoss's cheeses are the best/strongest: cannon rushing, 2 gate proxy, and 4 gate (though I don't think 4 gate is a cheese). Hell even proxy stargates can be tough to stop.

01/24/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Rishloo
You can only 4gate to diamond if you have a diamond level 4gate... If you are trying to 4gate to diamond with gold level mechanics, it's not going to work.


I would say that's the problem. I don't think it does require diamond mechanics to execute a 4 gate that would win against a diamond opponent. There are a few builds that are really easy to execute against their relation to defend against. 4 gating is one of them, 14/14 ling/bling all-ins another, proxy 2 rax, etc.
he got a point tho. You CAN four-gate to diamond if you have diamond mechanics.
AND WHO SAID IT AINT GOOD VS ZERG+ TERRAN?
good scouting + deny scout= Collect points.

As long as you not doing a BLIND 4-gate, you should win.

Yes, but experiencing the relative merits and viablity of 4-gating *all races* at my skill level or slightly below was the whole point of hte exercise. It's what I *did*.

01/24/2013 01:55 PMPosted by wraithcube
This is part of the reason why nobody would ever say you should get rid of cheese builds :D If you are ahead in army go attack. If you know an all-in will win at that moment there is no reason to not all-in.

Yeah, I think so. I get the feeling I've given up a lot by always trying to get to that one high-tech army to try to crush the other guy.
what about 10 gate partial gas variations that start warp-ins around 5:15? are those worse than the 12 gate version?

Join the Conversation