PvP Mirror Help?

Protoss Discussion
I just can't really seem to win a PvP. I'm even starting to lose to golds who just straight up 4gate, even after I scout it...

I usually try to do SaSe's 2 gate expand, but it doesn't seem to be working out as of late...

Any tips/BOs?
01/26/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Kirklands
I usually try to


01/26/2013 02:04 PMPosted by Kirklands
expand

theres your problem.
what opens do you usually use then snipe?
01/26/2013 02:33 PMPosted by CakeMountain
what opens do you usually use then snipe?

why so harsh? I just don't think always expanding right away in pvp is the right choice.
if your build isn't capable of adjusting to deal with a 4 gate 100% of the time then you need to go back to the drawing board. you can do a 3 stalker rush, or you can do a 1 gate opener: zealot > stalker > robo > sentry > 2nd gateway. then keep making sentries if you see a potential 4 gate. a couple chronos on WG and you're 100% capable of force fielding your ramp until the end of time, while also making immortals (although you will have to pause immortal production after you chrono out your first one to get up to 5 sentries)
I wasnt being harsh lol. I was just asking what you use :)
builds you must be able to use almost perfectly:

1. 4gate
2. 3 stalker opening into tech/expand
3. 3gate blink obs all in/into expand

BOs can be found on TL. 4gate should allow you to get master level pvp easily.
what about sase's 2 gate?
01/26/2013 02:42 PMPosted by CakeMountain
I wasnt being harsh lol. I was just asking what you use :)

*can't tell if patronizing me or being sincere*
i just open 4 gate robo and play it by ear. If they expand then i attack and expo on back. If they open stargate I just build stalkers. If they go blink stalker I just make immortals. If I cant tell what their doing I just go colossi. In all my games I normally make a warp prism. Late game I lead more towards air toss instead of colossi.
sase's 2gate expand is a very good build btw sniper, if done right it kills 4gate so well.
if you're losing with the 2gate expo OP it's prolly that your macro isn't spot on, from fighting against it i've found it very hard to beat. Either that or you're not active enough with your units so you miss a proxy or something of that nature.
Ok thanks. When I scout for the proxy pylon vs a 4gate, would it be better to split up my 3 stalkers or have them roam around in a pack? Generally when I split, I find the pylon but then the rest of my stalkers are out of position to snipe building...
But when I run them in a pack, there's a chance of just being out of position and not finding it at all. The people in my league often proxy it far away.

Also, I went over some of my replays and found that my opponents seem to be cutting probes after like 20 instead of 24. If I'm one basing it and don't plan on an expansion anytime soon, would it be worth it to get the extra 4 probes?
if they proxy it far away they still need to make a closer one or you have the defenders advantage
So I should just keep them close to the natural?
if you over extend you can get caught out of position or have units picked off if you don't have great apm and map awareness
if you're using Sase's build i'm guessing you may have already checked it out but just in case..

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SaSe's_Aggressive_2_Gate_Expand_(vs._Protoss)

just prevent really close proxies then you will have defenders advantage, and since you're ahead in probe count by this point you should easily have the advantage.
if using an expand build, do you continue probe production after you are saturated or wait until you get nexus down to probe?
If I'm already fully saturated, I don't probe until the nexus is around 50% so i can transfer a reasonable amount. Otherwise, it's cranking probes all the way.
Rule of PvP he who expands first loses.

Try doing a 3 gate pressure opening into expand. If you know how to 4 gate correctly it's the same thing except with 3 gates and as soon as you are ready to move out expand and as your warpgates are opening you will get enough money to make 2 stalkers and a zealot and start pushing. It either outright wins or fails and you fall back on an expansion.

If you don't know how to 4gate properly just ask I'll tell you.

The reason I hate 4gates is because they either get a crushing victory or a crushing defeat. If it's thwarted you're done you can't make !@#$ at home.

With the 3gate you have an expo throw down a robo crank Immortals tech to collosus and play the "The protoss with the most collosus wins."

I've also found plays where you go 3 gate DT's works exceedingly well. Because if a player 4gates you they don't have detection and it's a matter of how much do they kill before they die? Then you follow it up with an expand and now you have archons.

PvP is all about whoever is the most effectively aggressive will win. Bear that in mind.
I think I can 4gate pretty well... normally I can have my proxy pylon built at around 5:50 with the stalker and zealot in position. But is there any style of PvP where it's not balls to the wall aggressive? Like something along the lines of immortal warp prism drops but a little more damaging?
I feel like every time I attack in PvP with my entire army, it's an all-in, because if I don't come out with more immortals/colossus than the other guy, he can just march to my base and win.
To defend a 4 gate with a 3 stalker rush, leave the stalkers at your natural. If they get a proxy pylon up further than your natural, you should be able to defend anyway.

Then a few sentries will let you defeat the push. Attack whenever your tech path (which you almost certainly already invested some into) finishes.

Yes, attacking in PvP is always very risky. To improve the chances of success, try to hit a powerful timing. For instance, if you don't take a third and they do, and you line up your attack with a weapons upgrade finishing and a certain number of colossi, it could potentially be very powerful. Or you could use a +3 attack timing which is very powerful.

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