Terran from Gold-High Diamond Skill Threshold

Terran Discussion
HTOMario has a guide for mech tvp which looks interesting. I haven't played much hots yet but I've been trying out innovations tvp build(who I copied it from anyways) which has been working well on the few low lvl toss I've played. 12 rax 15 gas into reactor/cc then mine drop proceed into normal bio with hellbats added. I'm also trying to play bio/mine style tvz which is hard for a low apm like me but it is a fun change from mech. On that note anyone know the production I should have up on 3 bases with this style? I'm always floating a lot after my 3rd is up.


This sounds excellent, I actually haven't found an indepth analysis of Mario's play... the link from before was broken. All I can find right now is two replays on youtube, both casted by Husky. One is a TvP and one is a TvZ.
I've had successes with two openings in TvP.
One is mine drops into marauder hellbat ghost viking medevac. With one or two thor. I start with double armoury, 1 engy, then get a 2nd engy up at around +2 weapons to start on bio armour a bit earlier. It's tempting to also just do 1 armour 2 engy, and just get mech armour.
This said, the 1 or 2 thors are badass with the 3-3 ugprades.
The other I actually open 1 rax FE, early gas, stim/cs marines, into early 4 x gas, double reactor port viking. I can sometimes get away with 2-4 medevac production which makes my marines awesome. I get 12 vikings out very early in the game, like when he only has 2-3 colossi, suicide them, then win with a large 2-1 marine force, sometimes without even medevevac.
This second strategy requires 100% perfect micro or you lose. One mistake = gg.
If you do everything right thought, you just plain win.
If he survives, do marine ghost medevac, and keep suiciding those vikings before engagement. Get to 3-3 before he does and kill him before he catches up.
I really wish I had the apm to do the second style while pulling off mine drops but just macroing requires most of my attention. I find marauder/hellbat/viking/ghost/medevac is more forgiving because even during the army engagements you kind of just 1a with the exception of some emps. Even vs high-colossi count armies you can generally persevere or at least trade cost effectively. Archon/immortal seems to be the best counter, and storms still hurt A LOT vs hellbat marauder. The other thing is to get like 6 or 8 medevacs with this build because everything survives engagements so much better.
If anyone has any questions I have a buncha replays of a variety of different styles in mid-high diamond level ladder. I'm liking my TvZ a lot right now except for my all-in defense.
On tvp:

I don't have any replays vs good protoss players (because I suck and don't play good players) but I play mech exactly like I did in wol and it works just as well

except hellbats are beefer than hellions so I don't have to micro during battles

I don't think I've ever used mines vs protoss except to block expansions, there is no point outside of really early game defense imo

Sounds like you're really over thinking things, just make stuff and play smart.
funny you were diamond last sseaon, and it even says you got diamond for 3 seasons, so how long ago were you gold?? like 8-9 months??
funny you were diamond last sseaon, and it even says you got diamond for 3 seasons, so how long ago were you gold?? like 8-9 months??

Omg you caught me.
To be honest I never really tried at ladder 1s until the past 2 months where I've actually developed basic sc2 skills. I was basically gold level player who had managed to get into Dia one season primarily by 3 or 4 gating as protoss. I would be floating 2k minerals at points but still manage to win based on certain techniques or cheeziness. I was messing around with a variety of strategies on both terran and protoss and actually seemed to win enough matches. I started seriously playing terran only about 2 months ago now, at which point a gold level protoss could beat me. Easily. But I learned to quickly to catch up with my account mmr before I could be demoted. The difference between then and now, is that in many cases I can actually play on a mechanics level at a diamond level.
But I digress, I seem to have lost sight of the point of the post.

Back to something relevant...
So I HAVE IT!
The replay to end them all.
If someone can tell me how I just KILL a player in this situation, I think I will be alright.
A quick synopsis:
I play a barcode dude (I later see that he has 415 apm and probably one of the most efficient builds I have ever seen on ladder)... and I kill 29 workers in the first 10 minutes.
During the game I killed 59 workers.

Based on what he has at the 8 and 10 minute mark, what is a follow up build that will just plain kill him?
Don't tell me not to float minerals etc, tell me what army composition to build based off of what production layout. Do I get an earlier 2nd and hit a specific timing or just go full all-in?
I generally kill at minimum 20 workers with my harass. It hits between 730 and 8 minutes depending on how I open (I can go reactor first, or factory first, depending on if I want to pump out marines while factory is producing, plus timing on 2nd gas affects it as well. I have a slower variant that involves a far earlier fe). I notice I float minerals during my harass as I do not have perfect production saturation. I've had games as high as 40 workers where I still lose in a similar fashion. The chronoing of probes means that all of my harass just slows him down... so I need a build (with exact timings of structures based on timing, supply, or chronology) that will kill a player who is down this many workers.

This is basically the opposite extreme, where before I opened 15 cc, now I'm opening early aggression.

Here is my opener:
10 supply depot
12 barracks
13 gas
@100% barracks 1 marine
@100 gas factory
@ 50 gas reactor on barracks
bunker walloff.
(engineering bay vs suspected oracle/etc)
~2nd gas
@100% factory build starport, swap factory with barracks,
build reactor on barracks
double mine production on factory
turrets/ additional bunkers as required based on scout.
~@100% starport 3rd & 4th mine, build medevac
It is now around 7 minutes to 7:30 minutes.
Kill a bunch of workers:
Finish the build order fellas!

The few masters level players who have decided to help me have told me time and time again that I don't go in for the kill. The fact is, I don't know how. Most of my ladder matches last between 30 minutes and an hour, because I just harass my opponent while macroing. The problem is that both zerg and protoss have mechanics that allow them to just kill a terran that is trying to macro. For instance, in this replay, despite killing so many workers, and starting up my own macro, he still comes in with colossi and kills me. Again, I suspect this is a pro sc2 player, but considering the economic damage I did, I'm sure there's a playstyle that will follow up that initial advantage with a superior army that kills him, before he chronos out probes and recovers.

A similar build for TvT or TvZ would be good. Note that I do hellion drops in TvT and have had games where I roast upwards of 20 workers and he shows up at my doorstep with a decent marine, tank, viking army and stomps me.

Please help!

http://drop.sc/315827
Hey, I'm very analytical and would like to know another terran that I could bounce ideas off of to help us both get an understanding of the match ups and proper responses to what. If you want to do that and skype let me know in a reply.
You need to work on your decision making/harass vs protoss.

In a couple of the games you threw away units to hurt his 1-base economy - he just warped in again and killed you after probe surround hellions.

vs both Z and P you like to fight in very bad positions. example, thors engaging roaches with hellbats behind. dont do that

your drops vs zerg are really good. you kill sooooooooo many drones. figure out how to do 25% of that reliably vs protoss and you'll be fine as long as you position right.
Hey, I'm very analytical and would like to know another terran that I could bounce ideas off of to help us both get an understanding of the match ups and proper responses to what. If you want to do that and skype let me know in a reply.


Okay send me your skype acct name in private message or add me on NA bnet Sol 515.

Update: Since my last replays I have won most of my matches, and am now masters.
I'm dying mainly to bane/ling play (14 drone -1 base allin, or life-esque heavy bane/ling timings), banshee tank viking allins, and colossi rushes. Other than that, I've been doing okay. Mainly need help in TvZ now with the new meta game vs that heavy bane/ling technique
I'm just a silver dude (1st place) most likely getting into gold next season (800pts, ~46% WR). But one tactic I'm increasingly finding efficient is not to kill my opponent by sheer brute frontal assault power. Against an opponent with a superior macro and army this can be very cost inefficient, or outright suicidal. Toss's army is designed to kill you outright in a frontal encounter, and although you might kill zerg's, he can insta-remax while you are left with a rag-tag band or marines-marauders. But I've found a sweet spot in terran. Terran has two advantages over any other race - almost in a funny-ironic way: Terran is the Turtle Race, but it is also the Harass Race. The new boost mechanic and improved tanks in HOTS allows you to secure your expansions, while dropping your opponents like it's HOT.

One thing I've discovered in recent 1's and 2s as terran versus anything, especially other terrans and zergs, is the power of dual 3/3 marauder drops. At ~ 25 damage per second (w/ 3 attack), 2 medivacs loaded with 8 'rauders total a whooping 200 damage per second. Think about it. At 1500 HP, once those rauders stim dat OC goes down in ~ 7.5 seconds, even with the armor upgrade. I prioritize the OC, Nexi or hatch first, workers second. If you kill the OC/hatch/nexi, at best he cannot re-create workers or mine, at worst, he loses 1/3 of his income per second. I try to maximize the damage of my drops, as soon as his defenses come in, I don't camp, I run out, sometimes sacrificing one or two units if I cannot pick them up in time. After picking 'em up, I just drop another of his bases and proceed to destroy it. If it's defended, I camp the medivacs somewhere in the dead space where he cannot reach them, and just patiently wait until his attention is elsewhere to drop again. Think annoying mutalisks in WOL, who wouldn't kill you in a frontal assault, but rather by attrition. However, while mutalisks were limited basically to killing your worker line before your defense could arrive (sort of what you are doing), a dual marauder drop doesn't give an OC a chance - it just immediately dies - with everything else in it's vicinity as an added bonus.

Another efficient tactic is to drop like I described, say, his main, while at the same time a force of 8 kamikaze marines stim into his most remote 4th/5th. No medivac, just kill the workers or OC. This forces him to split his forces into three, leaving his main army weaker and ripe from a counter attack from you.

To sum it up, I'm discovering that unless you do a big 2-2 all-in push, which I feel can be somewhat of a coinflip - or possess Flash-level macro/micro, Terran is not the best race to win by frontal engagements...it is the best race to win by fighting a war of attrition.

Alternatively, if your opponent is so menacing that you cannot afford to even spare the APM for drop play, you can always just nuke/mine. You can send one ghost to nuke his wokers, and plant one or two mines in it to prevent it from re-populating. Note that these are all mid-mostly late game strats. Maybe you could follow up your initial hellion drops with the dual marauder drops, or incorporate some mines into your drop play to further stall his econ.

Also if he is droning hard behind your harass, you should perhaps reward yourself with an expansion for your good work. If your attack costs him 400 minerals (per 8 workers), and he immediately recreates those workers (losing another 400 minerals/8 workers), you should in essence have permission to invest the same amount of money into your economy that he is sinking into his. In a very literal sense, you could build your 3rd and 4th with the money your attack cost him. At worst, you should at least pat your back with a macro third, and maybe do a frontal attack or second drop to punish him for re-macroing instead of building up his forces.

I'll post some replays later ;)

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