Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing

General Discussion
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Banshee's are slow and can easily be punished though. They are making it basically a banshee that is much easier to control, which means less risky. You need it to be a risky unit, even now I don't think it's risky enough. The banshee also did not kill workers nearly as fast ( and I thought the banshee killed workers too fast ).


Banshees kill workers fast, yes. And actually can hold their own a little against static D or queens, yes. But risky? Also yes!

Banshees (without cloak anyways) can be easily shut down with a bit of scouting. Oracles now being as fast as mutas? LOL WTF SERIOUSLY? Is this some kind of joke? So you can fly in with ONE. LITERALLY ONE ORACLE...vaporize 10 workers in about 8 game seconds, and then just ROLL OUT crazy fast with no loss? (BROKEN!) Also, how convenient that THE ONLY RACE who will be able to catch these things now are...oh, wouldya look at that...protoss!

Un. Bee. LeeVAHBLE.
What time does proxy oracle hit now? I have no problem with this stuff in general, im just worried that it will hit before marines or mines can be ready.


I mean lets think If it moves say 15% faster and takes say 15 seconds to reach your base this buff should affect the actual travel time by maybe 5 seconds.

This is the difference between proxy right outside terran base, and across the map.
Dear Blizzard,
I really heard the community crying out because Proxy Oracles weren't good enough as is. I mean, yeah, it almost instantly kills workers, and toasts five marines before the 6 minute mark. That, however, is not good enough. This speed bonus is a step in the right direction, but I feel a stronger buff is needed. Therefore, I'm proposing that Oracles can be built from a gateway, and have the gas requirement completely removed. Also, I think the damage output is a little low, they don't quite one shot workers. That should be effectively doubled, and how about removing that energy requirement? It's really a shame I have to stop at 20 SCVs. Also, it would be fantastic if they could hit air. Pesky Vikings.
Regards,
FudGeCk.
Blizzard stop putting band-aids on zerg anti air with these spore crawler changes, just fix it already...
im a protoss player and I don't even think the oracle buff is needed. its already good enough... meanwhile Ive been watching pros play and I think the swarm hosts needs to be fixed because I have yet to see games where swarm hosts actually HELP zerg players win... and the hellbat bio tag is silly
Wow they really want those mutas dead in ZvZ
Stopped playing 2 months ago. Starcraft has turned into a TV Drama series of the QQs and the OH EM GEES. GW2 > SC2
I dunno about how much the spore buff will do, You simply cannot move out vs mass muta, and eventually they get like 40 mutas and one shot the spores,

Mutas do too well vs hydras when both are masssed, especially with ling support, and infestors... infestors cant hit mutas with fungal any more, and are easily sniped
Lol at everyone mad at the FIRST CHANGES ANNOUNCED...there are going to be more changes people, just test the ones they are giving us ...

the oracle buff seems reasonable, in the late game it wasnt easy to land a good revelation without loosing the damn thing...i would maybe increase the building time to compensate for the*GASP* 5 seconds protoss are saving with this change in the early game..

Burrow seems nice, it would be awesome seeing this used again, especially with banelings and drones, seems like a nice defense button against oracles, banshees and mutas...

I dont get the people saying Hydras need that huge buff...Ive seen that roach hydra is getting really popular because of its versatility, though mass skytoss could use a nerf, only if mutas get one too (muta ball seems impossible to hold as toss...and even if you do, the tech switch will kill you 99% of the time.

Something i wanted to ask for a long time...can terran salvage missile turrets? I always thought that that change could be very useful for terrans, shifting the meta to building them to prevent agression (just as you build bunkers in the front), and then salvaging them when not needed...

Anyway...good changes (except for the spores one), hoping to see where we get from here..and remember..relax people, no need to yell, just be patient
Oracle buff is good, burrow buff is interesting, probably will almost always get burrow now which is the point of course
Man I wish I could use my spore crawlers as my new Air to Air and root Corrupters at my base lol. Call them Spore Flyers and Corrupt Crawlers! =P
You are only buffing the gimmicky part; the only part of it which is good (its early game speed and ability to trash mineral lines).

If you want the oracle to be seen more through out the match ups; you have to change what isn't working.
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Not necessarily.
This is the same thing they did with the Mutalisk, and now it is seen quite a bit.


The muta regen buff is something I actually proposed before they buffed it.

The muta regen buff mainly increases their longevity outside of engagements. Yes, indirectly they do more damage because they don't die as fast, but the way they work now is you don't have to stare at red health mutas after one storm or widow mine for ages to come. Buffing muta speed was a response to medivac after burners.

Oracles speed on old oracles? Its Good, one of their primary strengths

Oracles mid game? Non existent

Why is this? I can tell you it isn't because they are too slow, it is because it doesn't do !@#$ once a turret comes up or it has to engage an army.

Sure, you could make its one strength OP enough to overshadow how %^-*ty the rest of it and its stats are, but i would much rather they don't make such a shallow unit and actually buff what is holding the unit back (which is not predominantly speed IMO).

Don't make changes that make what little it has going for it more effective, give it a place past 5:30 in TvP for starters.
Impressions:

Spore Crawler: Bonus damage versus bio theoretically seems good for stopping mutas, but I doubt the change will have any significant affect on ZvZ, as spores will still be oneshotted. Blizz can go ahead with this change (if they want) as I doubt any people will complain, nor many people even notice.

Burrow: Price reduction is neat a guess, will allow some cute expansion blocks, and early "observers" to see army positioning. I guess zerg could use some more scouting information, doesn't hurt.

Oracle: After trying it, it feels like the speed totally outweighs the acceleration. Feels awkward to me, but perhaps that is because I am used to the current oracle. On the positive side though, this will allow oracles to escape mutas, which is a pretty big deal. Once zerg goes air, oracles become instantly useless currently. Perhaps this change could be implemented with a build time increase on a oracle, even a little one, just to slow down the oh-so-dangerous all-in.

Suggested changes.

These are some changes that I personally feel would be beneficial to the game. Feel free to disagree.

Void rays: Although people have learned to cope with the better than the beginning of hots, they still seem a tad strong. If I go robo, I feel like stargate wrecks me way too hard, and even if I go twilight -- If i miss my blink timing window void rays become too good. Storms do fair well against them though of course. And then their is no doubt the infamous Skytoss deathball that Zergs seem to not be very fond of. Imo I feel that they do over QQ about the problems, to be honest it is a bit too strong.

Siege Tank. Siege tank seems to have fallen from glory in all matchups in favor of the widow mine. TvP it never was very good, TvZ Vipers and Swarm Hosts are designed to destroy it, and even in TvT the mobility of the speedvacs, and durability of the hellbat leave terran tank mech feeling weak. I think siege tanks should have +1 range, which would help with alot of their problems. Perhaps some bonus damage vs. shields (similar to the widow mine) just because? ;)

Battlecruisers: Anyone who watched the Parting vs. Life game 1 in Code S must've been flabbergasted seeing the skyterran fleet dispatched in such manner. Tempests hardcountering battlecruisers is ... well its just not right. I can understanding tempests having their absurd range, and that being the ace in the hole for ultra lategame TvP, but having toss' capital ship straight up hardcounter terrans ruins the potential epicness of lategame TvP. There a few different approaches to fix this, but I feel the most balanced way is to give Battlecruisers and ability similar to hardened shields, which won't allow Tempests to do their full damage, while still allowing tempests to counter broodlords and collosi. Depending on how this is implemented it could also soften up widow mines, seeker missiles, and feedbacks. Up for serious debate :/

Anyone else got any comments or perhaps even alternate ideas on some of these issues?
Nothing about Immortals or mech?

A bit disheartening....
My first post guys, finnaly:

I didn't play the map, but I know one thing for sure:

1 - Why buff the Spore when if you buff Queen's AA spines vs Bio it would've been much better choice.. Mutas are still waay faster than Queens, but they'll certainly guard bases/other ground armies better vs Mutas than Spores do..

2 - They didn't even touch the Hellbat/Widow-mine, really ?? - WM needs lesser splash, but faster recharge - i.e. - better vs Gateway heavy Protoss, lesser good vs Zerg TBH.. Though not quite sure about this one yet, cause it seems that if Zerg makes enough SpeedSeers can get rid of the mines pretty efficiently.. As for the Hellbats though - make them have 2 Armor, but scrap that ridiculous Bio buff (debuff vs Archons that is)..

3 - Make BroodLords not massive - it's ridiculous how easy they Die from Tempest fire..

4 - Reduce DPS of Ultras by some 20% on ground, they seem a bit too strong ATM for both - Terran Bio and Protoss ground.. If they however had 30 damage (or even 30+5 vs you choose - Mech or Armored) instead of 35 from those Kaiser-blades - cool things might happen, even making the melee upgrades being more important that is..

5 - Reduce Prismatic-alignment bonus vs Armored, but give them +1 base damage vs non-Armored - i.e. - VoidRay being 6+3+3 or sth instead of 5+4+6 (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this though, still - you get the idea), so they'd be a bit better vs Marines (you'll have Medivacs at that point of the game as Terran anyways) and less good vs Corruptors overall, and then maybe buff the Vikings to do additional Damage vs mech units.. After all - it's just Stupid to have Stargate OPENERS strong instead of Stargate TECH, but also stupid to have Vikings being obliterated by AirToss while Marines being stronger for that role.. Overall what the sole purpose here is - make Protoss fleet better vs Marines, but make Vikings strong enough to deal with it without messing down the TvZ..

6 - Swarm-Host: change that stupid upgrade - instead of having Locusts last 10 more seconds, give them +10HP when upgraded (for 150/150 instead of 200/200), but give the Locusts additional 3 seconds lifetime by default.. i.e. - A bit more sturdy when it finally comes to busting things up things but overall more vulnerable when Locusts aren't out (which will be longer).. Now ATM I feel like Hosts without the upgrade are too vulnerable/nearly useless, and are too strong with it (if you have enough of them ofcource)..

7 - I'm a top-silver/low-gold ATM, but I think that I have enough knowledge/information of what the game's lacking or has too much ATM cause I play with all the races i.e. - Random..

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Now I know that these changes/concerns aren't much patch-related (but rather more like game-related and in my eyes a bit more on the longer-term), but it's better to just say as objectively as possible what would've been better rather than just bash Blizzard for not analyzing things more thoroughly at this point IMO

Dind't know that this was where I should've put the thoughts lol, did it on the official page.. Still - hope you guys understand the issues better rather than giving random buffs to units that aren't in a bad position already really.. So - better - address the issues which the game (or some units at least) currenly seem to have, rather just giving changes to "see how it goes" TBH
Damage increased from 15 +15 vs. biological to 15 +30 vs. biological


sigh, its like blizzard doesnt get it. spores are already amazing vs mutas after the last buff, and zvz is still muta wars... wonder why. in zvz you dont engage a spore(s) unless you can 1-2 shot them with a large group of mutas. so nothing is gonna change, the muta player still gets map control and can expand alot faster and deny expos as well. buff an AA unit, spores are not the answer. hint wink wink, the hydra says hi.
I think the problem is with mutas, not zerg AA.

can zerg handle banshee harass? yes.
can they handle phoenix harass? yes.
can they handle void ray harass? yes.
can they handle oracle harass? yes.
can they handle battlecruisers? yes.
can they handle carriers? yes.

can they handle muta harass? no.

seems like zerg anti-air is fine. only thing broken is their anti-muta.

you can repeat the same thing for toss and it's all true, except that toss have ONE unit capable of beating a muta strategy. basically zerg and toss have the tools to handle ALL air strategies except for muta (which toss can beat, but has to counter in a very extreme way).
really seems to me that the problem isn't that anti-air is too weak, it's that mutas are too strong.
How about you stop worrying about the balance of the game and start fixing the damn technical glitches that are rampaging all through this poorly coded garbage.

WoL ran flawless almost for 2 years, then you put in patch 1.5 and your technical support forum since then has become the most popular part of your forum... and that's incredibly embarrassing.
Please test out my build order for roach rush with burrow. its very effective in my opinion especially with the buff burrow cost.

http://www.sc2builds.com/builds/67-roach-burrow-rush-at-7-8-roaches-at-6mark

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