Swarm host

Protoss Discussion
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i really think the cool down time for them needs to be increased or something else that would make them less over powered.

Ive been watching streams lately on protoss players because im one too but i see everytime a zerg goes swarm host in late games they mostly have a 70% chance of winning.

What do you guys think?
My biggest problem with starcraft is that there are units that don't require many actions to use, but cause the opponent to use tons. Like Swarmhost, tank, widowmine. And if you look there aren't really many of those type of units for protoss...
My biggest problem with starcraft is that there are units that don't require many actions to use, but cause the opponent to use tons. Like Swarmhost, tank, widowmine. And if you look there aren't really many of those type of units for protoss...

I'd argue High Templar maybe.

Still, to get the full effectiveness out of each of those units, you have to be able to micro pretty well. Even if it's the units making a buffer between the units that themselves don't take quite as much micro.
My biggest problem with starcraft is that there are units that don't require many actions to use, but cause the opponent to use tons. Like Swarmhost, tank, widowmine. And if you look there aren't really many of those type of units for protoss...


I only agree with the widow mine tbh. The swarm host is expensive, vulnerable when and when not burrowed, slow and can be snipped extremely easily. And to make them work constant re-positioning is required. As for the OP's suggestion. That would make them basically useless in every match-up and they are definitely not OP atm.

I'd argue High Templar maybe.

Still, to get the full effectiveness out of each of those units, you have to be able to micro pretty well. Even if it's the units making a buffer between the units that themselves don't take quite as much micro.


You forgot dark templar hehe.
My biggest problem with starcraft is that there are units that don't require many actions to use, but cause the opponent to use tons. Like Swarmhost, tank, widowmine. And if you look there aren't really many of those type of units for protoss...


Collosus, force fields, dark templar.

Your army is composed of them.
I agree that the swarm host is insanely strong, but if blizzard was to nerf them to the point that they always have to move and reposition after each wave then that would, essentially, make them useless. I think a nerf to the locusts themselves like an HP and damage nerf is needed though because I think it's a bit ridiculous how they can siege with free roaches. Even a dps nerf would be nice
Collosus, force fields, dark templar.

Your army is composed of them.

Please don't call them "your army" I played random until I got masters. The colossus requires micro and focus firing for it to be effective. Forcefields usually don't cause the opponent to do many "actions" because usually there is nothing he can do about it.
Dark templar is one of the few units protoss has that causes this.
05/08/2013 07:02 AMPosted by BaoTsetung
I think a nerf to the locusts themselves like an HP and damage nerf

The problem with locust is that they kill too fast in large numbers and even medium numbers. The second problem is that they die to fast in low numbers. THe zerg has to make a lot of them for them to be useful essentially making the zerg all-in for a while.
They just need to nerf DPS, and buff HP. Simple. A big nerf to dps that is. I think they should be less hydralisk like, and more Roach like.
Only way to combat Mass swarm host is to make a ton of collossus and hope that your opponent cannot abduct them all at once. Also add some HT's into the mix so you can storm the SH with the locusts when you push the locusts back. Good swarm hosts users will learn to back off as the protoss army comes closer though, this will make protoss take unnecessary losses and just as they kill the locusts, the zerg would've backed up his swarm hosts. The protoss will lose units for sure trying to push up to the swarm hosts' location. One way to look at it is to think of it as broodlords in the WOL days. Worst of all though, they're worst than Broods in the WOL days, since there isn't a direct counter to them when they're in mass numbers. Try to go around the army instead, Warp prisms are really effective since swarm hosts aren't mobile at all. But to effectively kill SH's you would need a really good engagement as good Zergs will know when to move their SH's back to minimize damage done to them and maximize damage done to the protoss for pushing into the SH's.

Edit:
Using high templars to try to Feedback the vipers might be a bad idea, only if you have full vision (observer) at the right spot will that be a good idea, since you are sure that they will be fedback before any abduct attempts can be made. However, if you don't have full vision on the Zerg army, you might aswell try to use it in terms of storms. This is because usually players will not have more than 150 energy on the vipers, thus it will not kill them right away. Your Ht's would have used up its energy while the zerg can use transfuse and get more energy from nearby zerg buildings. So unless you are sure that you can get the feedback before the abducts, don't feedback, everytime he yanks a collossi in, you would've lost a valuable unit to fend off the locust pushes.
You are forgetting several things. They are slow, immobile, EXPENSIVE, weak(health wise) and extremely vulnerable when on cool-down. If you are realy having trouble dealing with them throw a dark shrine down so a dt and obs can tear through the swarm hosts or you can push with a massive zealot, archon immortal/colosus force to smash straight through(can fail obviously). If you are really desperate drop all over the map like a maniac as he will be to far away and have to much invested in SH to do anything about it.
In lower leagues it's even easier as most players are to lazy to babysit/move around swarm hosts which makes it a whole lot easier.
Swarm hosts are like zerg's version of void rays. Yeah they're expensive, and they're slow, and vulnerable, blah blah. But they're pretty damn amazing and almost unstoppable once you hit a critical mass.

So your goal is to not let the zerg hit that critical mass. Treat them like a protoss player who's trying to build a deathball and harass, harass, harass.

And if you ever get frustrated having to micro your units against something that basically just auto-attacks from under the ground, you can take comfort in the fact that both ZvZ and ZvT are ABSOLUTE NIGHTMARES for us to micro.
You know, Swarm Hosts have always bothered me for those very reasons being posted: decent health, decent damage, impossible to fight in masses, but are very much weak in small numbers.

Swarm hosts really don't do a lot of damage on their own. If you've got a few of them, your army dies, and a Protoss moves up on you, your Swarm Hosts are going to get fried without being cost-efficient. If the locusts are sent to an area where the Protoss isn't and then he decides to come down on you, again, fried. But with good scouting and a decent sized corruptor army? There's just no way to fight it - the Locusts last a long time, and respawn by the time a 'Toss can make it to them, where they uproot and retreat while the 'Toss is busy with the locusts.

It could be a meta-game deal. Grubby vs Stephano yesterday showed the Mothership and a decent air force could be a potential answer towards defending against locusts (Mothership can cloak a base being assaulted, requiring an overseer and other fighting units rather than just picking off a base). Going drop-happy is also a potential solution when the Swarm Hosts are too well guarded by overseers/corruptors, but Zerg creep tends to let them react very quickly to drops, combined with corruptor numbers to take down warp prisms, and it starts getting difficult (zealots with a DT warp in may do enough damage?).

The durability of locusts also bothers me a bit - they're a siege unit, so you can understand why they're supposed to be so good when their opponents are far away, but there's no ground unit that can plow through a wall of locusts and make it to the swarm host before a repop - even Colossi don't seem to fry them that fast. But any nerf to the Locusts, and suddenly rushing Swarm Hosts with a large enough army will result in the Zerg losing too much (even a range nerf would be harmful).

Perhaps instead of a nerf to the swarm host, a defensive measure could be implemented instead. Again, I was impressed by Grubby's use of a mothership to cloak his base, and if we had something like arbiters, you could totally defend a base, and Zerg would have to send an overseer to detect when he wanted to attack anything (beta Oracle's old cloaking field would've been perfect). Or, if we must nerf the swarm host, nerf the off-creep movement, allowing players to fight swarm hosts by pushing back creep. However, the current strength of swarm hosts, while on-creep and close to an opponent's base? That's the unit working as intended.
if someones going SH against me I'll leave my wall and attack they direction the locust are comming from unless their in a spine forest to which I walk in his base, kill everything until he comes home then recall.

the most important thing here if theres any advice you want to take is leave your wall;
this way SH can't keep you in your base because of the cooldown time but instead attack them in the middle of the locust life; they'll have to retreat.
I think Bliz should nerf the Swarm Host just a bit: either make it so the Swarm Host is visible when "burrowed" until an upgrade is researched, maybe named "Deep Burrow" or something, or make the locust spawn rate 3 seconds longer.
The extra upgrade would just slow down the build up speed to mass; the slower spawn rate would make them just slightly less efficient in their exchanges, which needs to happen because their exchange rate averages at least 10x that of their opponent.

They are way too powerful. If they park in front of your base once, you're pretty much dead. But, I acknowledge that they are still fragile when exposed.
05/08/2013 06:24 AMPosted by BazookaTooth
My biggest problem with starcraft is that there are units that don't require many actions to use, but cause the opponent to use tons. Like Swarmhost, tank, widowmine. And if you look there aren't really many of those type of units for protoss...


Collosus, force fields, dark templar.

Your army is composed of them.


you're a dumbass if you think sentries and DTs require us to do nothing like a swarm host...

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