-THE- ALL-IN Roach Rush Toss... can stop :(

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Lol I love all the QQing about cheese. Terran cheesed everyone all the time and now that they "cant" anymore they qq about everyone being OP. So we have a couple cheeses ourself. Would they work against higher tier players, no. Are they fun/funny? hell yeah. I don't see the problem. It's just a cheese, every race has them. Who cares.
I think using this every ZvP game will cripple your playing ability over time...but if you were playing a Bo5+ then i could deffinately see doing this in one of the opening matches. This would probalby make them scout earlier(hurting their econ) and over react with defense. It seems pretty solid, of course top tier protoss with good forcefields will probalby be able to stop this, but again in several sets of matches vs the same opponent it could prove to be useful.
Nice! Go roaches!
Yeah this is some weak ass %%*%. L2P


Weak?

Why is this weak?

Is it weak because it consistently beats -good- protoss players virtually every single time I use it - even when they KNOW what's coming?

I've never seen this in a game, and I doubt most people have. He's going to scout the roaches and assume a standard roach attack (and a -quick- one if he's well versed on my nasty early 7 roach rush). He's not going to expect a queen, roaches, and 16 fricken drones (with 6+ lings following up) to show up at his front door, I promise you this. If you saw a zerg pull this off in a tournament vs a "top tier" toss you would be cheering 100% of the way (and the protoss forums would be full of QQ OP QQ OP).

And for the record, top tier players are still human. Almost all of them play a pretty standard way with a single sentry early, and their unit composition isn't going to magically larger at 5:30 when my attack is really kicking in. They will have the same number of units as a typical silver league player. There's only so much micro you can do at this point in the game.

Also, the -only- time I've seen more than one forcefield during this attack against me was when I played vs rekatan - and I still managed to overwhelm him. I doubt multiple -quick- sentries is standard play for rekatan or any other protoss. The other option is to try rushing out an immortal, but I've shown you that doing this means you have -less- defense and I simply run you over with a-move.



I explained this in another post. I was testing some crazy stuff vs other races. I wound up going on an 8 loss streak!

Several of those losses for instance are VS zerg opponents that I tried to do an all-in roach+queen+spine crawler attack on :). I was thinking I could modify the timing and make it seriously abusive. I was -completely- wrong. It FAILED, hard. Another loss due to my wife (she called, needed me to take care of a few things for a bid we were putting in on a property - wife takes priority over SC, so I closed out. Two of those losses were legit losses - one of them a Diamond Rank 1 pulled off a hidden 2 gate proxy attack and killed me before my roaches were out, the other was a game where I did my standard 7RR and the enemy managed to hold, macro up, and outplay me (well, he built a bunch of thors and A-moved over me, but I failed to stop him from MAKING those thors, so it's really my fault).

I will however point out that I am still 33-24, basically 58% (I was running almost 70% before this loss streak, and I'll catch back up now that I've stopped trying to cheese zergies.
Incenerate is stealing credit of this build from a member at Team Liquid. (note the dates of this thread and the one at team liquid.)

A note to all, this build was developed by an application from some of the community members on Team Liquid's website.

Long story short (the thread is 35+ pages long) a user decided to develop an application to optimize particular build orders. This 7 Roach rush Build order is an exact copy paste from the website.


Links are as follows:

Application Link -- http://code.google.com/p/evolutionchamber/
(zerg race only)
Thread link from Liquid... -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231

(dig through the thread, and you'll find this exact build order -- its a LONG thread --)
Also edit, timing is 4:34. Not 4:45.

Sorry to be the whistle blower, but give credit where it is due. Bet you hope that name change patch is coming soon now.


Quoted from thread at Team Liquid....

"On October 25 2010 06:00 icezar wrote:
Just to verify i tried the "demo" build Fast 7 Roach - what is the record on that?
After 5 min. i got them by 4:34! 6 sec faster than in first post (i know of a build around 5th page with 4:39). I am letting it run until morning."

(build order from application)

@0:00 M:50 G:0 L:3 S:6/10 BuildDrone
@0:12 M:51 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@0:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:17 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:23 M:53 G:0 L:2 S:8/10 BuildDrone
@0:29 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:32 M:50 G:0 L:2 S/10 BuildDrone
@0:40 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:45 Spawned: Larva+1
@0:49 Spawned: Drone+1
@0:49 M:104 G:0 L:2 S:10/10 BuildOverlord
@0:59 M5 G:0 L:1 S:10/10 ExtractorTrick
@0:59 M:50 G:0 L:1 S/10 BuildDrone
@1:00 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:01 Spawned: Extractor Trick Finished, Drone Restored
@1:14 Spawned: Overlord+1
@1:15 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:16 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:24 M:202 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildSpawningPool
@1:30 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:31 M:52 G:0 L:3 S:10/18 BuildDrone
@1:38 M:51 G:0 L:2 S:11/18 BuildDrone
@1:45 M:51 G:0 L:1 S:12/18 BuildDrone
@1:46 Spawned: Larva+1
@1:48 Spawned: Drone+1
@1:52 M:55 G:0 L:1 S:13/18 BuildDrone
@1:55 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:01 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:01 M:80 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@2:02 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:02 M:40 G:0 L:0 S:15/18 BuildExtractor
@2:09 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:16 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:16 M:140 G:0 L:1 S:14/18 BuildDrone
@2:18 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:29 Spawned: Spawning Pool+1
@2:31 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:31 M:238 G:0 L:1 S:15/18 BuildDrone
@2:32 Spawned: Extractor+1
@2:32 M:196 G:1 L:0 S:16/18 BuildQueen
@2:33 Spawned: Drone+1
@2:46 Spawned: Larva+1
@2:46 M:166 G:28 L:1 S:18/18 BuildOverlord
@2:48 Spawned: Drone+1
@3:01 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:01 M:205 G:56 L:1 S:18/18 BuildOverlord
@3:11 Spawned: Overlord+1
@3:11 M:197 G6 L:0 S:18/26 BuildRoachWarren
@3:16 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:22 Spawned: Queen+1
@3:26 Spawned: Overlord+1
@3:31 Spawned: Larva+1
@3:46 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:06 Spawned: Roach Warren+1
@4:06 M:520 G:180 L:3 S:17/34 BuildRoach
@4:06 M:445 G:155 L:2 S:19/34 BuildRoach
@4:06 M:370 G:130 L:1 S:21/34 BuildRoach
@4:07 Spawned: Larva+4
@4:07 M:304 G:107 L:4 S:23/34 BuildRoach
@4:07 M:229 G:82 L:3 S:25/34 BuildRoach
@4:07 M:154 G:57 L:2 S:27/34 BuildRoach
@4:07 M9 G:32 L:1 S:29/34 BuildRoach
@4:21 Spawned: Larva+1
@4:33 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:33 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:33 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:34 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:34 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:34 Spawned: Roach+1
@4:34 Spawned: Roach+1
Satisfied.
Number of actions in build order: 37
---Final Output---
At time: 4:34
Minerals: 236 Gas: 58 Supply: 31/34
Drones: 15
Overlords: 4
Queens: 1
Roaches: 7
Hatcheries: 1
Gas Extractors: 1
Spawning Pools: 1
Roach Warrens: 1
------------------
Sun Oct 24 22:59:44 CEST 2010: 598667.22006255
Thank you for pointing that out, I was just about to.

Lomilar and his program designed this build, not the OP, no matter what he might say.
Yeah, I was reading around the forums at Liquid last week when I found that application. Mad Props to Lomilar, the program is amazing.

Just gotta hate how people try to steal ideas and claim it as their own.
My first challenger, Reketan!

Thanks for playing one with me Reketan.

http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=160867


Dude reketan!!! you had the game...@!#%@#$%@$#53245

Why on earth did you Force field on top of nothing... You should have waiting til he started walking up your ramp cut off a couple roaches and kited the roaches to death.

Unit composition almost right, but why only 1 stalker and 2 sentry? Should be the other way around; one sentry and two stalkers. With proper micro 2 stalkers can kill 3 roaches. If you killed ~3 roaches and with the warpgate tech done, you could have won. =s


Yeh, you're absolutely right. I'm just not a very experienced protoss player. Looking over the replay again though I'd have won it decidedly had I simply waited till the first FF finished and split him just by 2 or 3 roaches. My first sentry was at 47 energy when the second FF expired, so that early second FF made all the difference, since warpgate tech would have finished with the 15s a 3rd FF would provide.

Ahh well, the moral of the story is I know a lot of protoss players who could have executed what I did there MUCH better, and would have repelled it np.

Also, notice that I didn't begin chrono boosting out sentries until after the roach warren was scouted, and my gateway and cyber both actually finished slightly slower than the average high level protoss player's, so your usual 1500+ protoss will very much be able to repel this if he scouts it (which he will ofc). It's just a matter of whether he's seen it before, and if it catches on in the slightest, he will have.
Yeah, I was reading around the forums at Liquid last week when I found that application. Mad Props to Lomilar, the program is amazing.

Just gotta hate how people try to steal ideas and claim it as their own.


Just found your post the other thread - good find moth, shame on Incinerate.

* -1 Thumbs down for fail and plagiarism.
Seriously Ghibli, here too?

It's -not- a secret, I -didnt- claim to have just invented it, I wasn't saying I am some kind of genius. I was trying to enlighten the 13 pool RR players that there -is- a better way. I -didn't- get it from a teamliquid post - but it wouldn't matter if I -did-. If you want to give credit where credit is due, why don't you go ahead and search the forum and take note of the DOZENS of posts from months ago that have 11/10 pool roach builds. Are you saying these people have time machines and stole things from teamliquid?

Hell, the 5 RR off a 10 pool has been around since the BETA. I added 2 roaches and and an extractor trick. Not exactly rocket science.

You mention the "similarities" in other posts, but c'mon man, what am I going to do? I need 34 supply to cover the roaches. I'm going to build enough overlords to allow for that. I need 1 spawning pool and 1 roach warren. I need a queen. I need drones. What am I going to do, dual roach warrens? Tech to muta?

Sigh. It's people like you that make me wonder why I even post.

And, for the record, this post in particular is discussing an all-in variety using my queen and drones and is -absolutely- MY idea, created during the last post. Someone might have done this before too - but I've never seen anything like it in a replay.

Credit where credit is due. Thumbs down.
Seriously Ghibli, here too?

It's -not- a secret, I -didnt- claim to have just invented it, I wasn't saying I am some kind of genius. I was trying to enlighten the 13 pool RR players that there -is- a better way. I -didn't- get it from a teamliquid post - but it wouldn't matter if I -did-. If you want to give credit where credit is due, why don't you go ahead and search the forum and take note of the DOZENS of posts from months ago that have 11/10 pool roach builds. Are you saying these people have time machines and stole things from teamliquid?

Hell, the 5 RR off a 10 pool has been around since the BETA. I added 2 roaches and and an extractor trick. Not exactly rocket science.

You mention the "similarities" in other posts, but c'mon man, what am I going to do? I need 34 supply to cover the roaches. I'm going to build enough overlords to allow for that. I need 1 spawning pool and 1 roach warren. I need a queen. I need drones. What am I going to do, dual roach warrens? Tech to muta?

Sigh. It's people like you that make me wonder why I even post.

And, for the record, this post in particular is discussing an all-in variety using my queen and drones and is -absolutely- MY idea, created during the last post. Someone might have done this before too - but I've never seen anything like it in a replay.

Credit where credit is due. Thumbs down.


I posted this in the other thread but, it's relevant so...

Normally I'm not this petty, but I have a special place of hate in my heart for people who cheat/plagiarize that developed and festered during my HS/college days. =)

Lomilar's and your BO contain two very unique characteristics that stick out like paint marked bills in a botched bank robbery: intentional supply blocking and back to back overlord production.

One universal train of thought in the SC2 community is that getting supply blocked is always bad, yet your build order utilizes supply block as a functional part of your build. Not too fishy... yet.

Back to back overlord production: in the normal course of the game, it is natural to make supply units/structure only when they are needed. Your build order could easily be modified to incorporate earlier roaches for defense against 2 gate, followed by the 2nd overlord at the mid 20 supply mark. However your BO incorporates back to to back overlords at 18 supply - your BO in your original post is will lose to an aggressive 2 gate attack b/c you don't even bother forming any sort of scouting/defense early on - for BO that has been in development for the past few weeks, it's strange that that you would not be aware of this weakness. The second overlord will delay the formation of any sort of defense even further thereby widening the 2gate timing attack window. If this BO has been in development for the past few weeks, you would have been hit by a 2 gate by now - yet you persist in the severe delay of any form of defense. It's easy to understand why the BO optimizer made back to back overlords, it was never programed to take early aggression into consideration; but why did you choose to do so?

I'll drop it... but it still remains very suspicious =)

Edit:
the other thread
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/902030865?page=8

Lomilar's thread
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160231
Do stalkers not kite roaches anymore ?
lol, forcefield ramp.
God.. You get haters from people claiming plagiarism when the BO isn't really hard to figure out since you essentially focus your BO to push out 7 roaches as fast as possible. Any SC2 veteran could figure that out.

You also get haters that don't understand when that in the process of figuring out and testing out a BO, you will get losses, whether they be map, BO or skill related.

Doesn't matter who the hell it belongs to at this point, because it's not entirely difficult to figure out from the get go.

My main opinion about this build is that it should be used as an ace in the sleeve or every now and then; NOT as a main opener. It becomes too predictable and predictable is bad. Zerg should always have alternate strategies and openers, and this is one of them (i might exclude the whole queen and drone all in part).
use sentries to split up roaches and block them off ramp. Problem solved. Sentries will save your ass early game

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