Zerglings need HP upgrade in mid-game

Zerg Discussion
So the marine is the argument for ling HP boost?

Both cost 50mins
One marine has 55hp with shield, 7dps.
Two lings have 70hp, 14.4dps.

How is the marine the argument for ling HP boost?
06/13/2013 02:57 PMPosted by Sanlumiere
And the tiering of units is intended to encourage a player to explore in to different units as the game progresses.


True for protoss. False for terran. Irrelevant for zerg (all our units fail vs deathballs so there's no point building them).

The idea is to only build zerglings if you can get value out of them. Not for 200/200 zerglings to become viable.

It's wonky that you can't really survive on melee units until ultras hit the field by only researching melee upgrades (I'm having a *lil* luck researching lv1 melee/lv1 carapace, lv1 range/lv2 carapace, into lv2 melee, lv3 carapace for ultras), but imo, the problem isn't that zerglings aren't viable (they are if used for run-bys and drops all game long vs p at least), it's that all of our ranged units cost too much supply (this is equally true of both roaches and hydras).

A *LOT* of zergs have been asking for a 1-supply unit, because we're forced to build lings because of the supply cap in all circumstances. Having roach/hydra balanced around 1 supply might be interesting, and the swarm host comes *closer* to making the supply cap less severe for zerg, so maybe cross our fingers that infested terrans get buffed or LotV actually gives zerg more swarmy units than T or P?
06/13/2013 07:39 PMPosted by KitenMitens
How is the marine the argument for ling HP boost


fair points, now give me a unit that can heal my zerglings and gives them 5 range
Yes mathematically two Zerglings look better than one Marine and in small numbers (less than 20 supply) that is true, hence the delayed upgrade. But in reality above 20 supply in a ball the range in the core overrides the swarming, they might as well be backed in a corner. 14 dps would be great if they were all actually hitting but only the surface area is attacking meanwhile even the core of the ball is using its dps.

I fail to understand why this seems to be such a mystery. It seems perfectly obvious to me, how is this so complicated? Perhaps my solution is not the best, but the problem is real, and it needs a solution. Instead of showing the math maybe see what happens in a game.
Yes mathematically two Zerglings look better than one Marine and in small numbers (less than 20 supply) that is true, hence the delayed upgrade. But in reality above 20 supply in a ball the range in the core overrides the swarming, they might as well be backed in a corner. 14 dps would be great if they were all actually hitting but only the surface area is attacking meanwhile even the core of the ball is using its dps.

I fail to understand why this seems to be such a mystery. It seems perfectly obvious to me, how is this so complicated? Perhaps my solution is not the best, but the problem is real, and it needs a solution. Instead of showing the math maybe see what happens in a game.


This is a problem, but it does not need a solution. If zerglings become viable against balled units, then they become unstoppable against anything else. The current situation is fine, zerglings beat units scattered, and banelings win when they're balled. Combine the two and you're good. Infestors prevent kiting, and now you're well on your way to ultras!
06/13/2013 09:59 PMPosted by Impulse
The current situation is fine, zerglings beat units scattered, and banelings win when they're balled. Combine the two and you're good. Infestors prevent kiting, and now you're well on your way to ultras!


Unless tank, widowmine, colossus, forcefield, stalker, maraurder or archon is the main composition of the ball. Then both your lings and banelings are awful. And even if not, you're generally spending gas to counter minerals even when you *are* good against the ball.

Imagine that terran could counter gas with minera-- oh wait, they do counter roach/hydra/muta/everything with only minerals.
Zerglings are great. Where they're at right now is completely fine.

The problem here is perspective.

Of course lings die easy, you get 2 for 50 minerals. That should tip you off on how to expend them. If you rush them into siege tanks, widow mines etc etc, OF COURSE they're going to melt away. So how should you effectively deploy them? Split. Why are Terrans so effective? Multi prong attacks. Because we don't have very reliable or cost effective drop play, we Zerg as a whole seem to have thrown our hands up with the possibility. This is a severe hindrance. You can posture unto the Protoss or Terran army while sending a hit squad of lines to a mining base.

Let me tell you, 3/3 lings with Adrenal glands are AMAZING at sniping bases and killing workers. Once the damage is done, the lings would have paid for themselves 10 fold. And in the late game (25 minutes+) why is overlord drop play out of the question? It shouldn't be, packing 3 overlords with lings to drop in his main to destroy production structures will make them commit their APM where they don't want to. Of course this would require certain conditions to be in line, like he isn't moving in on you with his entire army at that moment. In any case, trading a pack of lings for a base and workers is always a worthwhile trade.

There is a lot more to say, but I think that's enough food for thought.
Unless tank, widowmine, colossus, forcefield, stalker, maraurder or archon is the main composition of the ball. Then both your lings and banelings are awful. And even if not, you're generally spending gas to counter minerals even when you *are* good against the ball.


As they increase the tech in their army, you will have to as well. That's just how it works. BTW widowmines don't make lings useless, in fact a good surround with a section of your ling army can cause enough friendly fire to wipe out his marines, you can kill more marines than you sacrifice in lings this way when done right.

And I haven't seen a terran beat a zerg without putting gas in his composition for a long, long time.
06/13/2013 08:44 PMPosted by Momentum
How is the marine the argument for ling HP boost


fair points, now give me a unit that can heal my zerglings and gives them 5 range


Then you no longer get speed or two at a time.
the reason zerglings aren't as good in sc2 is because lings in sc1 were actually broken since there dmg and health was disproportionate with there cost.
I have been trying to customize a map to play test it. I was able to get it working, but I had modified Daybreak LE and at upload realized it is probably infringing on that designers efforts. Is there a better map to test it on?

I have been playing with that upgrade in mind and definitely agree it needs to be at Hive level not Lair. Still I think the upgrade would be useful and not overpowering (at Hive).

Just a thought, what if some upgrades were mutually exclusive? As someone said above... "then give up move speed or two at a time". What if you could upgrade health OR attack speed but not both, one disables the other. Kind of like the tech choices in Campaign?

----

Back to one of the original questions. Am I macroing incorrectly, to have so much extra larvae and minerals with never enough gas? It seems like no matter what mix I use I have too many minerals after I run out of gas. The only army unit I can build with the remaining minerals are Zerglings and by that time they are worthless. Maybe it is my lack of skill but it does not seem like Protoss (Zealots) has that problem and definitely not Terran (Marines). Beyond Marines Terrans have several units that are minerals only.

Just looking at the resource locations 8 Mineral Patches at 1,500 each and 2 Vespene Geisers with 2,500 each means each location has 12,000m and 5,000g that is a ratio of 2.4m to 1g so for every gas I spend I have 2.4m left (of course some gets spent as well). Any unit that is 1m to 1g leaves 1.4m unspent and that builds up with only Zergling to spend it on.

Hydralisk at 100m 50g (2/1) leaves 20m. Roaches are better at 75m 25g (3/1) but still require some gas. Between them they balance out but get crushed by higher tech.
Muta 1/1
Infestor 0.75/1
Ultra 1.5/1
BL 1.2/1
Swarm Host 2/1
All leave lots of unspent minerals. What else is there to do with them??

Meanwhile Terrans produce Marines all game long and are still effective.

What am I missing??
Zerglings are crazy good lategame with +3 and adrenal. They may become pretty bad in direct fights but they become great at sniping undefended bases, especially in ZvZ.
No thanks. Right now zergling is balanced because 4zerglings can kill unmicrod zealot. With upgrade of zeal the zergling is at a disadvantage. Remember 4zergling = 1 zealot. Now just because you played StarCraft original doesn't itself mean much. I played Warcraft. Then Warcraft 2 and the expansion before sc1 bw and Warcraft 3. However that doesn't mean I have good balance understanding. Well I understand now more after finishing school and uni than I did with previous games but I'm no master.

Your Lair zerglings will be stronger than Roach, zealot stalker, immortal, void, mine, marauder and a dozen other units.

Ling runthrough is now double hard to clean. Closed doors are double hard to hold. Expansion double hard to take. Ling isn't supposed to be a unit to tank. Stop using them like that.

Ling can hit and run. Marines are fast costs health to be that fast. If the Marines stim, you run they take no damage and their health is 20% lower. You do it again, 60% remaining. Then attack. If they have medivac then you need gas to counter and all is fair again.

Trying to fix Marines with better lings is the wrong way. Change your style. Offer change to Marines like stim cool down. Or lower movement speed with stim. By changing zergling you change how zerglong interacts with zvz zvp and zvt when t goes mech and loses to ling because the zerglong changed too much.

Edit: Spend minerals on building drones, spine, hatchery expand and queen. Win a war not a fight.
It seems like you did not take into consideration how difficult it would be to engage an army that has anything besides just lings. I don't see how giving a 1/2 supply unit 50 health makes since, the marine only has 55 with an upgrade and it's 2 supply. Just make more banes lings are only there to soak up damage, until you get adrenal glands, then they do become the highest dps per cost in the game. Lol the other day I read a post that bio should have 4/4 upgrades. These things really need to be thought of in percentages. 4/4 bio would melt nexuses in 3 sec just like 340 50hp lings would never die...
Well this thread is like a year old and:
I don't see how giving a 1/2 supply unit 50 health makes since, the marine only has 55 with an upgrade and it's 2 supply.

somehow you got Marine supply wrong.
The biggest problem is that marines almost out heal damage done to them by medivacs, which hydras suck, mutas is only real answer.

lings should just have higher move priority. so they can be microed. Which is what everyone wants, a micro able unit.

if lings get higher move priority then they can be awesome with right micro, this would give zerg something to counter death balls in since, this can make vipers worth gold. this would force tech switch because zerg can recounter your micro with his.
Your idea is awesome, but they won't implement that change. Blizzard hates Zerg, and the Terrans think it'll break the game for them, when they could just build Hellbats and have Widow Mines to guard the mineral lines.

The Protoss i think a Shield upgrade would be great. Maybe an upgrade at the Twilight Council that gives +1 or +2 shield to Zealots so they can soak up more Zergling damage to compensate our increased HP?

Then the terrans will complain about the Zealot buff, but Terrans are the only race in this game that have a T1 ranged unit that counters everything and can use Stim Pack to move and attack faster while there's a flying unit healing them, forcing Protoss to get Stalkers to focus fire the Medivacs while the Marines are facerolling everything. And what for Zerg? We need to spend gas building Roaches to hold off Hellions harass, delaying our already 100 gas lair, then make a 100 gas Hydralisk Den, and finally start building Hydras to kill the Medivacs.

Blizzard hates us.

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