ZvP

Zerg Discussion
Post Limit:
How does everyone feel on this?

I feel its incredibly stupid, and totally unbalanced.
Protoss can kill most zerg on 2 base, on 3 base it's nearly impossible to beat them.

What is good against this combination?

Zealot
Stalker
Sentry
Colossi
Phoenix
Void ray.

I dunno what I could have done. I got 3 bases, to start, and massed a bit of roach/hydra, with SH and mutas

got some good ecom kill, then he destroyed my army instantly.

Remaxed on roaches and lings, to which 5 more colossi tore through.
ZvP is my worst matchup, if ZvZ is off the table.

Really, Nasreth's lings strategy doesn't work too well if they get more than 1 colossi.
I don't know what to do. I basically win every ZvT, 50% in ZvZ, and lose every ZvP.
It's been a source of huge frustration with me, and I feel like my ZvP is what's holding me back honestly from reaching mid leagues.. the thing is with ZvP is that nothing is really consistent.

Like in ZvZ you always know speedling -> baneling to hold the early game.. that's consistent.

ZvT you know speedling baneling with a handful of roaches for helions.. this can easily carry you to the mid/late game.. consistency. Ultras in the late game or corruptor / broodlord if he did something crazy like mass ravens or mass bc.

Consistency.

In ZvP I often get the feeling like "nothing works." There's no real consistency I can attain. That being said it's my most difficult matchup it's the most challenging, but there are some basic rules I guess you can follow to make the matchup more managemable.

What I hate is that you are utterly at the Protoss's mercy. Everything you do hinges on what he's building and when he plans to push out. You have to utterly and completely react to what he's doing... you don't have to do that at all in ZvZ or ZvT for the most part. In some ways in ZvT they have to react to YOU. If you're going ling/bling/ultra they better get a ton of tanks and hellbats etc..

I just hate that feeling of really letting the protoss dominate what you are doing in order to win that game, and they're very safe from early pressure and very resistant to any type of early damage. more so than the other two races.
Hmm lets look at your statistics this season.

06/28/2013 04:49 PMPosted by roarbot
I basically win every ZvT


ZvT: 59%
Not quite every.

06/28/2013 04:49 PMPosted by roarbot
50% in ZvZ


ZvZ: 35%
Not quite 50%

06/28/2013 04:49 PMPosted by roarbot
and lose every ZvP.


ZvP: 67%
Ok then.
I haven't won a single ZvP or ZvT game in so long. I dunno why, I just die.
Hmm lets look at your statistics this season.

I basically win every ZvT


ZvT: 59%
Not quite every.

50% in ZvZ


ZvZ: 35%
Not quite 50%

and lose every ZvP.


ZvP: 67%
Ok then.


I talking recently.

Does everyone on these forums obsess with looking up people's stats?
I've been doing Rekatan's SH style in ZvP and seeing amazing success, even though I really suck at it. The micro I can handle, the base defense vs zealot/dt/vr warp-ins I can handle. Keeping the colossi/void count low with hydra/corrupter/viper play I can even handle.

But I spend like I'm in bronze, and I feel like I'm trying to take off a suit with oven mitts on. For now I'm forcing myself to deal with the discomfort and just learn it... but I'm not joking: I spend like a bronze. Last game I banked 12k/9k because I sat at 200/200 for almost 10 minutes. I even stopped injecting. It's horrible.

I used to do roach/hydra openings into ultra w/ caster support, but that always had a big long window where I just couldn't hold on long enough to field ultras, and I was much more vulnerable to skytoss. So I'm trying this... but I honestly don't care for it. It's an active enough style once you get the swing of moving SH around... I dunno. I hope I'm just uncomfortable because I haven't learned it well enough yet.

Still, you should give it a shot too. What's the worst that could happen, lose a few more games?
Link to the build, please?
Go watch his stream. By his own words, he doesn't really follow a 'build' so much. He adapts it to the game.

He's streaming now, actually.
His .. style.. it's not very dynamic. Keep in mind swarm hosts are the worst defensive unit in the game... Rekatan pulls some fancy stunts out with Nydus and stuff that we lower level players can't even dream of.

Stumbling through Rekeatan's swarm host style without having like a Masters level play level, really is just what I said.. stumbling. You'll win if your opponent is really slow and bad.. otherwise most you can hope for is a really long drawn out ugly stalemate and hope they rage quit.
06/28/2013 05:08 PMPosted by roarbot
Does everyone on these forums obsess with looking up people's stats?


I had a feeling you had no clue what your actual winrates were, and I was right. You are probably the only person on these forums stupid enough to complain about a race you have a 67% winrate against.
His .. style.. it's not very dynamic. Keep in mind swarm hosts are the worst defensive unit in the game... Rekatan pulls some fancy stunts out with Nydus and stuff that we lower level players can't even dream of.

Stumbling through Rekeatan's swarm host style without having like a Masters level play level, really is just what I said.. stumbling. You'll win if your opponent is really slow and bad.. otherwise most you can hope for is a really long drawn out ugly stalemate and hope they rage quit.


You're certainly right on all counts.

But my ZvT style basically revolves around the idea: "go ahead and drop me. You can find my buildings in the spine forest."

This translates pretty well to his style, where SH form the aggressive front. I just think of them as another base, and keep my army there (along with another spine/spore forest). I've got decent creep spread, so it works out for me. I just need to practice it more so I can execute it within a reasonable time frame, rather than having my first SH show up so late.
Do you still use the lings style?
Oh my god.

Nasreth.

That is amazing.
I just tried it and...

Wow. Way easier than roach/hydra.

I feel its incredibly stupid, and totally unbalanced.
Protoss can kill most zerg on 2 base, on 3 base it's nearly impossible to beat them.


Incredibly stupid I cannot disagree with in the slightest. My personal enjoyment of the game both as a player and a spectator would greatly increase if the protoss race was just actually deleted from the game at this point.

Balance wise however I don't really see a problem with protoss. I just think some of the most skilless and coinflip stuff protoss do is far more rewarding to them than playing a proper macro game, with harass and positioning etc. This is part because of their all ins and cheeses being so strong, part because of the mentality of the players coming out of WoL and arguably even partially because protoss has a hard time adapting to the flow of the game due to their reliance on expensive units; making it more rewarding for them to plan something before hand and stick to it religiously rather than modify their plans on the fly.

Blizzard have done reasonably well getting the protoss matchups to around 50% but the gameplay in the protoss matchups is horrible. The way the race is designed is just never going to function to make enjoyable gameplay.

As for what you should be doing theres plenty of advice here on what to do as an overall plan but i really think a key thing people overlook in ZvP is actually analysing what your opponent is doing. Many protoss, across all leagues try get away with absolute murder in this matchup and play stupidly abusive. Youv really gotta train yourself to be able to look at what a protoss is doing and just be like "Wait a minute, you just actually cant survive a big push of X atm with how your playing". If you dont some protoss will just ecocheese you to death and youl be pretty doomed whatever you do.
Following the OP ( Couldn't really be bothered to read many of the posts ) the Protoss had a mix of Ground / Air army. Generally, Protoss don't throw Phoenix into our armies for fun, so you must've made Mutalisk's. If you didn't, then that Protoss is just really weird. Also, Collosi take 6 supply, and Void's take 4. I would say that he would have maximum, 3 Collosus and maybe 6 voids. I get the feeling that if you made Hydralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, and a few Viper's to abduct his Collosi / Void's. it may have been a bit different. But again, I haven't seen the game, so I don't really know what could've happened.

If it makes you feel any better PvZ is my worst matchup.
Colossus Void Ray is a huge pain in the !@#, especially if they add HT or Carrier transition and pull it off. I know every other Zerg will probably tell you something along the lines of: 'don't let them get that composition' but then what are you supposed to do when they got away with turtling? I think that Blade55555 has the best answers on how to deal with Protoss builds. His analysis of ZvP has really helped me because I struggle in that match up, but I at least know what I should be doing to beat them now. Watch Blade55555 on youtube and you'll get some great tips on how to beat any Protoss composition.
Following the OP ( Couldn't really be bothered to read many of the posts ) the Protoss had a mix of Ground / Air army. Generally, Protoss don't throw Phoenix into our armies for fun, so you must've made Mutalisk's. If you didn't, then that Protoss is just really weird. Also, Collosi take 6 supply, and Void's take 4. I would say that he would have maximum, 3 Collosus and maybe 6 voids. I get the feeling that if you made Hydralisk, Broodlord, Corruptor, and a few Viper's to abduct his Collosi / Void's. it may have been a bit different. But again, I haven't seen the game, so I don't really know what could've happened.

If it makes you feel any better PvZ is my worst matchup.


Dude, Protoss players can make a ton of colossus behind a wall. The colossus count can get scary high. So can the Void Ray count. It's hard to tell which one they're committing to the most once they start turtling on maps like Akilon Flats. They get three base and go colossus void ray a-move composition all the time on that map.

Join the Conversation