Possible changes for balance test map

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08/13/2013 01:40 PMPosted by Davidkimchi
I find it interesting that protoss are the lowest performing but zerg and terran are being buffed, in one case, specifically vs protoss. hmmm


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=10

omg, someone still believe in this !@#$ty document?
Note: I normally play on EU, finally managed to log into US...

Overseer change - well, it might work. The concept behind it seems simple enough (reduce micro issues for Z since they have to defuse mines with individual lings), so I think it's worth trying out.

Mech upgrades - don't like this. Firstly, all races have 5 upgrades at present - why change this. The vehicle armour and air armour are already merged and this provides an easy transition from mech to air and back without being imbalanced; but if weapon upgrades are merged too, you get instant +2 hellbats lategame vs P, and I'm worried TvT might go back to tank-viking wars (since if you play bio-tank you need 4 ups, bio needs 3 (medivac armour), but mech/sky-mech only needs 2). Not to mention what problems Z might have with sky terran transitions in super-late game.

My preferred buff to mech would be improving siege tank damage and/or HP. Those things are meant to be scary, and should be for 150/125/3, but atm they just fire party poppers. Combine that with the hardcounters available (immortal, VR, viper with either of its abilities) and you can see why nobody makes tanks any more. However, if they had enough HP to get off more than one shot vs closing speedlings and enough damage to scare a Protoss from attacking into a choke, they might be worth it.

Viper buff - just plain weird. Why give it extra energy when it has consume? If the problem is that you can't get energy quickly enough, how about buffing build time or consume speed (same energy restored per damage done to target building, but say 1.5x faster). That might even allow people to do things like fly in with viper, retreat back, consume quickly and go back into battle - rewarding high skill/APM players.

Finally, how about a nerf to protoss. They're enjoying a lot of success of late (40% apparently in GM, 6 of 8 top spots at WCS EU) and I can't remember the last time I saw a Z beat a P. I'd start by reducing colossus speed so that after losing one expansion, zerg have a chance to remax before losing a second. Other race's siege units (tank, BL, SH) are immobile, and colossi have cliff walk anyway.

ahydra
Posted by Thyaliad
erhaps making Bio units continue to be affected for a really short while even after leaving the cloud? Just an idea I thought off on the spur of the moment. I am very sure there are better ideas.

This is a very possible thing to happen. I agree that the change makes it even stronger vs. mech which is not what it should be and it doesn't have to any stronger vs. protoss than it is.

Blinding Cloud however needs to do something to bio so it's worth it to go for it. I think one of the possible ways would be to force widow mines to move (like they couldn't shoot through the cloud at all) which would force a positional battle more often and would force terran to move their widow mine lines like the old cool tankwar.


This is a great idea. Units that get hit by blinding cloud should retain some of its affect, otherwise bio moves too quickly out of the field anyway, whereas mech is totally destroyed by it.
08/13/2013 01:44 PMPosted by Zibbibbo


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=10

omg, someone still believe in this !@#$ty document?


Even if you dont believe it, recent results show protoss doing well in tournaments.
Finally, something from Blizzard. This whole "ignore it now, fix it later" policy is really annoying me.
Before it gets lost, my thoughts about a different and IMO better Viper change:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9653245363
Bottom line:
Blinding Cloud now reduces all ranged attacks and spells [-> WMs] by 5-7 to a minimum of 1.
Ooh that seems interesting.
Before it gets lost, my thoughts about a different and IMO better Viper change:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/9653245363
Bottom line:
Blinding Cloud now reduces all ranged attacks and spells [-> WMs] by 5-7 to a minimum of 1.

That would be OP as hell for sure if it did both of those things. I'd say change blinding cloud into an AOE silence that lasts a few seconds that can affect both air and ground. That would give Zerg an anticaster unit while buffing a hard counter to mech.
ok guys, let me translate this changes for you:

1. overseer speed buff (after upgrade):

We like zerg. So instead of letting them learn to micro, macro and multitask like the other races, we want to give them another gift to make their life easier.

Gold protoss lol. You make my day. Pretty sure i micro you'r main race better than you with only one hand. But keep spawn a clik with your colossus/void ray ball and think it's microgestion.
1. overseer speed buff (after upgrade):

We like zerg. So instead of letting them learn to micro, macro and multitask like the other races, we want to give them another gift to make their life easier.


I'm sorry that we don't all have free un-stoppable detection in the form of scans.
1. overseer speed buff (after upgrade):

We like zerg. So instead of letting them learn to micro, macro and multitask like the other races, we want to give them another gift to make their life easier.


I'm sorry that we don't all have free un-stoppable detection in the form of scans.


And don't forget that when Terran actually does buy a detector it has one of the best support spells in the game and a pretty awesome damage spell, all for the same price as a Viper.
no one cares about these upgrades if the game is still a broken pos.. fix 4v4 come on its been months now. focus on that more than balance
08/13/2013 01:48 PMPosted by ahydra
Finally, how about a nerf to protoss. They're enjoying a lot of success of late (40% apparently in GM, 6 of 8 top spots at WCS EU) and I can't remember the last time I saw a Z beat a P. I'd start by reducing colossus speed so that after losing one expansion, zerg have a chance to remax before losing a second. Other race's siege units (tank, BL, SH) are immobile, and colossi have cliff walk anyway.

I dunno man, the amount of protoss in GM is very likely to be caused by the race's very strong 2 base timings. In ladder, they dominate so hard since their pushes are so strong and have very good cheeses.
in tournaments though, they can't all in 2 base timing every game whereas they can in ladder :)
If they are winning so hard in macro games, then I'd agree to a nerf
08/13/2013 01:41 PMPosted by sceadulord
Doesn't this seem familiar? Oh yes, Thors with an energy bar, and the removal of Khaydarin Amulet because High Templars being capable of casting Psionic Storm right away was deemed too powerful. Those who sees no problem in full energy Vipers or any spellcasters for that problem needs a bonk on the head.

This is a different case as protoss have the warp in mechanic which let them have insta storm anywhere :)
But yeah, giving vipers full energy is too much I think
08/12/2013 12:20 PMPosted by Dayvie
3. Vipers start with full energy


Scorpion: Collosus... GET OVER HERE!!
ok guys, let me translate this changes for you:

1. overseer speed buff (after upgrade):

We like zerg. So instead of letting them learn to micro, macro and multitask like the other races, we want to give them another gift to make their life easier.

Gold protoss lol. You make my day. Pretty sure i micro you'r main race better than you with only one hand. But keep spawn a clik with your colossus/void ray ball and think it's microgestion.


Dude there are so many better arguments than "I am in a higher league than you so you are wrong". Even worse is that you are only one league above him.
Really interesting changes. I hope this is the booster shot Mech needs.
Oh and I love how every patch seems to include making "More" Viable strats for Terran. Good job Blizzard. Bias much?

How about making I dunno. Half the Zerg army more viable ?. Why do Barracks unit counter EVERY unit that Zerg has? Explain this? Why is is that Terran can take their early game unit comps into the late game and WIN?. Hell I think Barracks units counter every unit Toss makes as well.

Why is it that P and T have to "tech" up to be effective against an Army the Terran can make in the FIRST 7 MINTUES OF ANY GAME?????? How often do you see any of the Terrans "High tech" units. Why is it that all terran has to do is MICRO bio while P and Z have to get caster units out to even stand a chance vs it?

Want to make mech more viable? Grow some balls and nerf bio so Terran are FORCED to try new friggin strats. So sick of seeing the same ol !@#$ from WoL into HOTS. 90% of the pro matches I see, I don't even SEE the new units being use (except for Terrans). Frig I even FORGOT what the name of the new Protoss units are, its that bad.

Oh and my favourite thing is this. Zerg was denied the lurker because it overlapped with Banelings, but hell they had no problem making widow mines take the place of TANKS. Instead of giving Zerg a unit that Terran players would ACTUALLY fear... they put their panties on and denied Zerg the COOLEST unit they ever had. This is why I think Blizzard is going downhill as a respectable gaming company. EA Much?


you sir, are an idiot. terran bio is the way it is because it is pretty much impossible to tech switch for us. terran bio is fine as it is because of that reason and the fact that it takes so much micro to work. hmm, funny something that NO protoss players do with the exception of some pro players. If you go bio, then you have to stick to bio late game. not all barracks units are t1. And it's dead without Starport support.

The problem with mech is that it isn't viable at all simply cause viper and immortal HARD COUNTER THE ENTIRE COMPOSITION bllinding cloud literally makes mech entirely useless and imortal's hardend shields ruin it versus protoss. the only match were it's viable is TvT.

Widow mines are very much different from tanks. yes, they do splash damage, but that is about all that they have in common. They ahve to burrow to be used and have a very, very long cool down. Oh, and they don't hit static defences, plus they don't recieve attack upgrades. they do a lot of damage, which is mitigated by small range and the long cooldown which basically ensures that widowmines are useful only once anyway. and if a zerg is SMART they can be dealt with easily by sending a few lings in to trigger the mines, or even an overlord or overseer to tank damage. hmm. again, micro! Oh, wait, most Zergs below masters can't do that. Oh, and they cost 4 times the supply of a bling too, and 3 times the cost of 1 bling.
I also think they should nerf the colossus dmg to +dmg light only. Protoss goes Colossi every match up, all the time, also nerf storm range and dmg to 60, 80 just eats bio too hard.

Also nerf void rays, and oracle dps, then this game will be balanced.

Making SHs be able move and spawn locusts would be really fun to watch, since colossi are a siege unit and can also move and shoot (AOE dmg).


I agree, I never want to see Protoss make another tournament ever again as well.
ANYTHING to help ZvT right now is absolutely wonderful. Bio Widow mine is just too strong vs zerg, I think almost the entire scene agrees on this. I'd love to see tanks come back, but with the viper it could be hard. I'd suggest a small nerf to WM and a buff to tanks. It be nice for tanks to be an option again, and bio WM not be so strong.

Perhaps even increasing the supply for the viper, so blinding clouds against tanks he really hurt zerg supply. However this might be too rough for ZvP with viper use... Tough one.

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