Possible changes for balance test map

General Discussion
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08/12/2013 03:58 PMPosted by PsychoBob
#1 - I think you're looking in the right place to help Zerg without going too far. I would also suggest perhaps a vision radius boost. More speed is good, but in comparison to protoss (observers are stealthed) and terran (uses scan) the zerg will often have to sacrifice some unit against a widow mine, and for us lower level zerg it is often the overseer itself because there is such a fine line between being able to spot the mine and being shot by it.

All detectors have pretty much a standard vision/detection range of 11. Speed should be enough because Overseers are the toughest detector, and they don't require supply.

08/12/2013 03:58 PMPosted by PsychoBob
#2 - I don't like this at all. Personally I still think Terran is the strongest race... hear me out! Not because they are just OP but because the units are the most straightforward to use. Think TvZ, as you described in the section for #1 the zerg has so much stuff to do to stop a basic marine medivac mine push. Sure, the zerg can stop it if they are ontop of the fight and can keep their injects going but that matchup asks the zerg to do so much more to be successful than the terran needs to do to be successful. Giving terrans an even easier upgrade advantage isn't going to help this. Give the terran something that it useful but requires micro to be effective.

1. Bio usually requires a lot of splitting/kiting to be effective.
2. Tanks, Swarm Hosts, Warp Prisms, and Widow Mines are probably the least straight-forward units to use in the game. Terran has 2 out of 4.
3. This change buffs mech, which is currently underperforming in all match ups. Bio is unaffected. Technically combining mech/air upgrades is a very good buff to mech. The only argument one could really postulate against this would be "I don't like it".

08/12/2013 03:58 PMPosted by PsychoBob
#3 - Yes I play zerg but no I don't like this. It's too much. Start them with enough energy for 1 abduct or better yet let them consume enemy buildings.

Something between 75 and 150 would be right.
does absolutely nothing for mech aside from buffing it in TvT
it will still be awful in TvZ because theyre inadverdently nerfing mech AA and immortals still roll over everything in TvP
overall another nerf to terran

How are they nerfing mech aa?

Widow Mines make up part of mech's anti-air (they can be used as static d or charged and burrowed under enemy fliers for a very large burst), and Overseer speed is being buffed to allow Zerg to detect Widow Mines more easily. Technically this constitutes a very weak nerf to mech's anti-air; however, the change is so minor that nobody should try to argue this point and Widow Mines being used in this way would rarely be affected. Thors, Ravens, and Vikings are all powerful alternatives that would not be affected.
hmmmmm so terran is op at low levels, and easy to play at high ones. LETS BUFF THE !@#$ OUT OF IT!!!!! good job blizzard
08/12/2013 04:06 PMPosted by TerranicII
Widow Mines make up part of mech's anti-air (they can be used as static d or charged and burrowed under enemy fliers for a very large burst), and Overseer speed is being buffed to allow Zerg to detect Widow Mines more easily. Technically this constitutes a very weak nerf to mech's anti-air; however, the change is so minor that nobody should try to argue this point and Widow Mines being used in this way would rarely be affected. Thors, Ravens, and Vikings are all powerful alternatives that would not be affected.

Ah, thanks for explaining.
"Hey guys since Mech isn't being used much we were thinking about buffing it "
"Noooo Blizzard! Why you buff Terrans?!"

- These Forums
Plz nerf the motha!@#$ing ship core!!!!! :0 NERF THE COOLDOWN FOR GOD SAKE!!!!!!
"Having to micromanage your army in every engagement, morph new Banelings, manage 4-5 (or more) bases, and morph new Overseers can be a bit too much."

This is the point of starcraft. Please don't make it easier to manage.

But these are cool changes, and interesting to see how they go.

"For the warhound."

*bows head with hand over heart*
So blizzard refuses to reduce armory price to 100/50 to actually buff mech in an indirect way? Does blizzard listen at all?

"We recognize mech is weak."
"So we're going to start vipers off at full energy."

It's about time to fire David Kim.
why cant you do your job right, just once david kim?

mech weak in tvz because of viper/swarmhost ---> buff viper

mech weak in tvp because of immortal, mass warpin, ---> combine upgrades wont change anything

seriously when i read !@#$ like that it makes me lose faith in humanity.
im sick of this !@#$.
this is the day sc2 died for me.

when will these retards in the balance team understand, that tank supply needs to be reduced, tank dmg needs to be buffed. WHEN?

when sc3 is released?

seriously stop working as balance designer for sc2.
even a monkey would be able to balance the game better and give us more options.


Tank is fine. It's just that it isn't op like other terran units cough cough widow mine.
Viper energy is a bad idea. All-in timings with vipers are too strong already against Protoss.
FINALLY ZERG BUFFS :D
Are you serious guys ? Mech buff is way stronger than Viper buff... get real.
It's nice that mech is finally getting some attention, but I think that the only way to make it viable is to address its supply effectiveness on the ground, preferably through a buff to the armored damage to the tank.

Right now, Merging the upgrades might be a nice start. But it does might not be enough to tone down mech's hyper strong deterrent counters.
08/12/2013 04:12 PMPosted by yaydog
hmmmmm so terran is op at low levels, and easy to play at high ones. LETS BUFF THE !@#$ OUT OF IT!!!!! good job blizzard


I don't think you understand what their trying to do with this terran buff. You do have 1 thing right, they are making terran stronger in a very small way. The terran change will basically save them some money and time and not have to research so many upgrades just to get their air and ground mechanical units up to par. In short, they're buffing mech, and I'm glad they're doing so. Of all the changes requested of the forums this one, that blizzard suggested is a really small but profitable change that is really great.

Terran is easy to play at the lower levels, but also easy to beat... If you know how. Terran is really difficult to play at the higher levels. Please, don't criticize blizzards balance changes unless they are officially wack, this change isn't... Like that Viper change... That one is really stupid; they are basically putting their changes into an oxymoron.
Good changes
Would like to see gateway units or Protoss in general buffed though.
The mech idea not so good you want to make mech more viable encourage terran to get less reactors and more tech labs. Make the mine a tech lab unit. It would help solve the problem of mines being so easily massable (and making engagements easy for terran and hard for zerg) and with the tech labs they may be encouraged to go into more late game mech units instead of staying on pure bio mine all game. The problem with mines isn;t that zerg has problem with detection. It's that mines are cheap, easily maskable and require no micro from terran while alot from zerg. They are like the new infestors. The viper change is good in zvp but it also discourages mech in zvt even more because blinding cloud on tanks basically neutralizes mech play.
I don't think the overseer buff is troublesome to anyone, I might be wrong.

As to the mech upgrades buff, in WoL terran had the most upgrade lines (6 vs 5 for the other sides), and now they'll have the least (assuming this goes through, obviously not a certainty). Ground weapons, armour, shields, air weapons and armour for protoss. Ground melee, ranged, carapace, air armour and attack for zerg. If terrans are on four upgrades total, that puts us at a position where viking attack upgrades and hellbat attack upgrades are shared, for example. It also allows ground mech to skyterran transitions to be made incredibly easily, while their counters (largely in the air) require a whole set of additional upgrades.

If this turns out to be too big of a buff (and it is not a small buff) some price changes for the new joint-upgrades might have to be considered to adjust for it.

Honestly, I'm not sure this was the right buff.

Regarding vipers, this is mainly a timing change, it doesn't strengthen or weaken of any of their abilities. Either it's a full feedback unto death, or multiple colossi pulled at an earlier interval. It doesn't add much to the game itself. In so far as the viper is too effective vs mech, it's now even more effective than before.

It might be better to consider how you can approach the abilities themselves differently.
As to the mech upgrades buff, in WoL terran had the most upgrade lines (6 vs 5 for the other sides), and now they'll have the least (assuming this goes through, obviously not a certainty). Ground weapons, armour, shields, air weapons and armour for protoss. Ground melee, ranged, carapace, air armour and attack for zerg. If terrans are on four upgrades total, that puts us at a position where viking attack upgrades and hellbat attack upgrades are shared, for example. It also allows ground mech to skyterran transitions to be made incredibly easily, while their counters (largely in the air) require a whole set of additional upgrades.

If this turns out to be too big of a buff (and it is not a small buff) some price changes for the new joint-upgrades might have to be considered to adjust for it.

Honestly, I'm not sure this was the right buff.


I don't think it is either, because it might not be enough to address mech's main problem, the deterrent counters on the ground (it has them in the air too, but that is a different story).

There are quite a few community maps out there that have tweaked the tank and immortal. Dayvie, if you see this can you take a look at them :D?

thx
2. Combine mech ground and air upgrades

We don't think Terran is struggling, but do think mech in general has been weak throughout HotS. We tested this specific change a bit in the beta, and we have some idea of how much better mech will be, but a lot has changed since then, so we'd like to actually have players playtest it again.

Right now, it's looking like the only area where Terran might be weak is late game PvT, but it’s debateable. If so, this change would address that area, because upgrading Vikings that are really core in the matchup will also help with the Hellbat transition in the late game.


I really like this change but it still makes it very hard to deal with things like 2 base blink stalker.
I really love the idea of having the ground and air attack combined. It will make it easier for Mech Terrans to implement the Sky Terran units they need for the late game. The fact that it has almost no effect on Bio aside from late game bio-hellbat TvP is another plus. Good Mech buff overall that was so desperately needed. It should of remained after the beta, but I guess later is better than never. Overall, I think the overseer buff is fine with me, Mech buff is great and the viper buff is a bad idea because it hurts Mech.
dunno if this is just a fcking bad troll or if blizzards wants to buff zerg more... i can understag 1 and 2 but 3 is just a totally retarded unnecessarry buff i mean it doesn´t even need 30 sec to get the vipers full energy and they are already to fcking strong, i defently think this would hurt T and P to hard, compared to the fact that in exspecially most PvZ zerg dominate because of the mass free units and turtle style where you can´t even fight the Zerg anymore in a open space because Swarm Hosts dominate the game if now they would have Blinding Cloud or Grap it´s to fcking strong they really should think about speciall situations like this ...

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