Call to Action: August 19 Balance Testing

General Discussion
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The viper energy buff should only apply when Pathogen Glands is researched. If a Zerg starts Pathogen Glands a minute after Hive, Vipers will pop with the extra energy
Sorry for being a Zerg user.

Why not combine melee and range atks upgrade for Zerg as well? will make us even more reactive with terran mid game.

Can someone please explain to me how Overseer speed will help with widow mines for Zergs unless widow mines' detonation time is increased, changelings can detonate/ detect or set off mines and contaminate can render mines inactive.

Viper with or without full energy is irrelevant since Templars can 1 shot them with feedbacks and ghosts can EMP them too

Current Terran still need Mules? No matter how, mid game mineral line harassment doesnt hurt them as much as Toss or Zerg plus their 4M play is only mineral intensive and during mid game or end game, they just need to land a CC and drop mules like crazy and 'BAM' they ARE the swarm coz endless waves of Ms with start flooding in.

Terran is like Zerg now, they can churn out 2 Marines, 2 widow mines/ hellbats/ hellion and 2 medivacs or vikings within their respective structure.

Terrans and David (Snoozing) Kim can say all they want about TvZ is balanced all they want, the fact is it is NOT. Zergs cannot cope with the low gas cost of 4M play. While Terrans has more than sufficient gas to spare for their unit upgrades, Zergs struggle to keep up with their constant drops and widow mine harassment. This is very apparent in top level TvZ ( whenever they attempt to tech to tier 3 they will be unable to keep up with Terran aggression).
and yet protoss doesnt get anything....
I have played about 6 ZvP and 6 ZvT, and have evaluated these opinions based on these games, note that in all of these games my main game plan revolved around using the buffs to any degree, not necessarily to win any of the games, and they were played with a low masters Protoss and a high diamond Terran player, I am a high diamond/low masters Zerg on my other account.

ZvP

Overseer - I actually like this change vs. Protoss alot, scouting is easy, and contaminating Forges and Robotics Bays is pretty easy with how maneuverable the Overseers are. A good little minor buff in this match up,

Viper - I'm really torn on this, and it's definitely in a bad way. This buff seems to almost encourage rushing to Hive and trying to hit some sort of timing with full energy Vipers which seemed tricky as it severely delayed my upgrades and cut into my Hydralisk count, although in a few of the games where I tried a Stephano style Roach max with quick Vipers was pretty good against a Protoss going 3 base, but as SOON as High Templar hit the field, no more Vipers. Period, they just get feedbacked and pop like balloons.

This makes the relationship that the Viper has with ZvP almost totally all or nothing, either you hit some type of timing with the Vipers, or they become obsolete with the first Templars.

ZvT

Overseer - Great in this match up currently, they keep pace with Mutalisks alot better, I can almost bait mine shots with the Overseers and save my Mutalisks from all damage, they are also much easier to save from the bio ball in main engagements, good little buff to the match up.

Viper - Very bad change for this match up, we tried to use mech (so he could of course try the new upgrades) and as long as the Vikings were at least somewhat zoned out by air support, Vipers are now incredibly potent vs. mech, more so then they already were, coming right out and blinding the mech army is just flat out overpowered vs. factory units. On top of that, it is still supremely useless vs. Terran bio, this change adds nothing to the match up, if anything it actually takes away.

Proposal

Make Blinding Cloud reduce the range by a flat 5 so that mech isn't just totally raped by the Viper and that it can still zone out bio units, but make any bio unit effected by it unable to see for 2-3 seconds, so that just running out of the cloud doesn't just negate the effect of it completely.


You sir, I like.
08/17/2013 07:02 PMPosted by EZMODE
and yet protoss doesnt get anything....


Do they need anything? Recent results don't exactly suggest they are struggling...
and yet protoss doesnt get anything....


Do they need anything? Recent results don't exactly suggest they are struggling...


They kinda do get a buff with the viper buff, cause it means that they pop as soon as feedbacks hit them. It's an unnecessary buff, but one nonetheless.
A test map that I am legitimately going to play. I want to make sure that the armory upgrades goes through :) you WILL hear from me later.
08/17/2013 07:15 PMPosted by Miro
You sir, I like.


Thank you, was trying to keep the opinions positive yet objective, I really do like the Overseer buff, but honestly, the Viper change, no go.

I really hope Mr. Kim has a chance to look at my opinions based on my games, the Viper buff is definitely going in the wrong direction, I really feel that with my proposed changes, the Viper would be in a fantastic place vs. both Protoss and Terran, without completely obliterating mech in TvZ even more then it is, the Viper needs to be stronger against bio and weaker against mech, not the other way around.
08/18/2013 01:58 AMPosted by MeeMeesiko
the Viper needs to be stronger against bio and weaker against mech, not the other way around.


This is what we've said since the beta but blizzard seems to live in some sort of daydream that they're actually really bad vs. mech and really good against bio because nobody in that house is truly wondering they're not used vs t.
I am originally a terran mech player, but switch to protoss in this season.

So, my team is as follow:
8 battle cruiser
16 viking
14 widow mine
7 tank
10 hellbat

And my result with the test map is as follow ~
mmm to mass battle cruiser: lose
zealot stalker colossi to mass void ray: win
mass roach to corruptor lings benes ultralisk: win
mass raven to mass battle cruiser: lose
benes drop to muta lings benes: lose
roach hydra corruptor infestor: win
4 medicvac mmm fast rush: lose
colossi stalker to ht archon zealot stalker: win

Terran
Armory
Vehicle and Ship Weapon upgrades have been combined into just one upgrade.

It seems that battle cruiser become most benefit with the change, and it force all terran to mass battle cruiser and no one use Thor. The upgrade makes battle cruiser reach 3/3 faster than before and unit that suppose can counter it seems no use now. (eg. viking void ray) But battle cruiser can't beat muta if those muta are surround by lings, or if my team is mixing some viking with battle cruiser. Because of mutalisk's regen rate, you will lose all battle cruiser if you cannot shut mutalisk down immediately.

I think battle cruiser should have a new purpose of bio terminator. This is a piece of area that mech cannot do it's job now. And because of the immobile playing style of mech, You should notice that terran mech is more immobile than protoss mech. It can't stop mmm or muta harass, and also can't stop mass caster launching storm and seeker missile to your tanks.

Basically, it is good for the upgrade combine, it makes weak unit stronger such as thor and battle cruiser. But battle cruiser's armor may be too high and make viking and void ray become useless when battle cruiser's armor reach 6.

Zerg
Overseer
The Pneumatized Carapace upgrade now increases Overseer movement speed from 1.88 to 3.375 (previously 1.88 to 2.75.)


It's make muta shut down all widow mine and you can't use thor due to swam host. Then terran have no way to stop muta even massing battle cruiser. Of cause I agree with this change but terran mech's mobility should be raise a bit in order to have a fair game.

Viper
Starting energy increased to 200.


Sorry, I still didn't see viper in the game. May be the direction of change is wrong.

My suggestion summary:

1. Thor's 250mm Punisher cannon increase damage and deal additional damage to massive air unit, with range reduce to 7.
--- It will let thor to deal with more type of unit and increase it's usefulness. And let it become more goliath like style.

2. Battle cruiser's ATA and ATS laser battery deal 6 damage (+2 to bio), with 0.2 second attack cooldown and armor reduced by 1.
--- As I have said above.

3. Battle cruiser's yamato cannon upgrade remove, a new upgrade is added to increase ATA and ATS laser battery range by 1.
--- It can help Battle cruiser survive in late game with muta.

4. Thor and battle cruiser have a upgrade in Armory to increase their move speed to 2.25.
--- As I have said above, to avoid storm and seeker missile. And have a fair gaame with harass player.

5. Viper's starting energy didn't need to be increased. But changing consume to a channeling spell which increase it's energy regeneration by 400%. With receiving 200% damage if hit by any attack.
--- You knows. Evocation.

6. Blinding cloud change to a pojectile spell which stick on target. While infestor's fungal growth change back to a circle like the WOL one.
--- It's make viper counter bio and infestor counter mech.

7. Add a new AA unit to zerg hive tech. While ultralisk move to lair tech.
--- Ultralisk is under use now.

8. Swarm host's damage reduce by 25%, and it's locus attack have 10% chance deal small area damage of 35.
--- Bloodlord and swam host's role is overlapped, and I have no idea to fix it.

9. Carrier's interceptor attack deal 6 (+2 to light), with a 1.4 second attack cooldown.
--- Carrier did have problem to deal with light Ground to Air unit such as marine and hydra. And I didn't want to change too much.

10. Phoenix's attack change to 10 damage with a 1.5 second cooldown.
--- It will make phoenix counter void ray and raven effectively, and the counter style of skytoss become phoenix -> void ray or tempest -> carrier -> phoenix.
Really hoping the Viper gets passed! :O
So how to make this game balanced/interesting again?

Zerg has very few tech options because Infestor is so bad. In WoL Infestor was the Core unit for zerg. Well lets look at the changes. Infestor was nerfed massivly to lock down a playstyle used in WoL. But this is not WoL anymore?
Broodlord/Infestor wouldent work anymore anyway because Protoss can just scout the Greater Spire timing and make Tempests.
Terran can with speedboost on medivacs easily dodge Fungal. It will bring zerg some more options to deal with air units in general. Bringing the old Infestor back would force terran to adjust their playstyle and focus more on Vikings. Currently its just booring MMM in waves untill Zerg cant defend it anymore.
So how to make this game balanced/interesting again?

Zerg has very few tech options because Infestor is so bad. In WoL Infestor was the Core unit for zerg. Well lets look at the changes. Infestor was nerfed massivly to lock down a playstyle used in WoL. But this is not WoL anymore?
Broodlord/Infestor wouldent work anymore anyway because Protoss can just scout the Greater Spire timing and make Tempests.
Terran can with speedboost on medivacs easily dodge Fungal. It will bring zerg some more options to deal with air units in general. Bringing the old Infestor back would force terran to adjust their playstyle and focus more on Vikings. Currently its just booring MMM in waves untill Zerg cant defend it anymore.


Infestors are still a great support unit to every Zerg unit composition. They can be considered one of the best support casters in the game. Infestors are no where near requiring a buff.
So how to make this game balanced/interesting again?

Zerg has very few tech options because Infestor is so bad. In WoL Infestor was the Core unit for zerg. Well lets look at the changes. Infestor was nerfed massivly to lock down a playstyle used in WoL. But this is not WoL anymore?
Broodlord/Infestor wouldent work anymore anyway because Protoss can just scout the Greater Spire timing and make Tempests.
Terran can with speedboost on medivacs easily dodge Fungal. It will bring zerg some more options to deal with air units in general. Bringing the old Infestor back would force terran to adjust their playstyle and focus more on Vikings. Currently its just booring MMM in waves untill Zerg cant defend it anymore.


Infestors are still a great support unit to every Zerg unit composition. They can be considered one of the best support casters in the game. Infestors are no where near requiring a buff.


Infestors are only needed for one purpose currently. That is to hold Marauders in place so ultralisks can destroy them.
so widow mines, siege tanks. they already combined the armor upgrades for vehicle and ships into one...and now they are "considering" combining the weapons as well. i swear why is it that blizzard wants terran to be the most OP race. how does this even make sense to anyone??
08/18/2013 07:59 PMPosted by winters
so widow mines, siege tanks. they already combined the armor upgrades for vehicle and ships into one...and now they are "considering" combining the weapons as well. i swear why is it that blizzard wants terran to be the most OP race. how does this even make sense to anyone??

The reason why they are doing this is that Terran mech/sky compositions underperform--they have been underperforming since WoL.

If Blizzard was trying to make Terran overpowered, They would have implemented either a Marine/Marauder damage buff, or a Medivac healing buff; or something else that buffs that part of Terran that is not sub-par at the competitive level.


Imagine all hyper drives can go a set specific speed. With a hyper drive you are going really really fast, so you can't go through planets or asteroids. The reason why you describe the "Kessel run" in a minimum distance is because the navigation computer is more advanced and can calculate a better route or the one who set the route is more experienced.

So you actually can't say that with an increase of speed you will make a Kessel run in more or less parsecs because it is a unit of distance, not time. If you could have made it less than 12 parsecs before the increase in speed, you will still make it in the same amount of distance.


If you look at this from a relativistic point of view, it's technically correct to say (as a hyperbole) you can "do the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs" because, as you approach the speed of light, distances literally shorten. So if you interpret it like he's exaggerating by comparing the overseers speed to the speed of light, it is a valid expression to say you can get from one place to another in "less" distance.

If you don't believe me, google Lorentz contraction.


Actually the reason why making the Kessel run in less than twelve parsecs is a measurement of speed and not distance is because the center of Kessel is a massive black hole, travel too slowly and get caught in its gravity field and you die, so the faster your ship can travel the closer you can get to the black hole crushing space allowing you to go further but it be perceived as faster.

The laws of the Speed of Light don't matter, its Star Wars.
Viper change is utter nonsense for TvZ... cripples mech too easily and while Bio is much more mobile, with how quickly Z can reinforce this makes it far too easy to fend off an attack. Hatch just a single viper, spew out 2 clouds and just send in the banelings as the marines flee for their lives.

Would rather see the cost of their spells lowered to 75, since they are a rather expensive unit and can't do anything without energy (100 for both spells is a bit much truthfully). And if not, then I think it's only fair that EMP completely wipes out all energy again.
The vipers starting with full energy would kill mech TvZ..combing upgrades does not matter if your whole army cant even shoot because of all the blinding clouds. As a Terran its hard enough dealing with vipers. Zerg lands 4 blinding clouds and you lose your whole army(when going mech)..which as a mech terran means u lose the game.

I think vipers blinding cloud should shut down the widow mine..and the cloud should be cut down by 1.5 seconds als.. this would nerf it vs mech in a way that its still powerful but not OP and it would buff zerg vs the 4M bio of terran.

If vipers start with full energy mech will be dead in TvZ just as it is in TvP..it will only be marine marauder in both match ups all the time..yaaawwwwnn..boring.

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