Vanguards Retribution Paladin PvP Guide 7.0.3 Retribution Paladin Guide This guide is written mainly for players new to playing retribution in arena / PvP. Guide is also posted in a different format on: What changed about Rets in 7.0.3? 1.) This is the pre-patch for Legion, Rets and many other specs have been changed completely. 2.) Abilities Removed: Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, Blessing of Sacrifice, (baseline) Word of Glory, Emancipate, Divine Protection, and all Seals 3.) Judgment now applies a debuff to the targets it deals damage to, increasing holy damage taken on spenders such as Templar's Verdict. 4.) Talents are completely changed. 5.) You can use a total of 3 blessings at any time. For example, without a party you can have all 3 buffs on yourself. In 3v3 your DPS and yourself can have Might while your healer can have Kings. 6.) Glyphs are Removed. 7.) Hands became Blessings. Make sure to update your macros! PvP Talents In the talent picture I selected talents that I use as default in arena. Talents and Glyphs should be changed every arena match depending on what composition you're playing, what you're up against, and what strategy you and your opponent might execute. Level 15: Highly Recommended: Final Verdict This increases your Final Verdict damage by 20%. Currently the other 2 talents just don't beat out the damage you can gain from Final Verdict in a PvP scenario. Level 30 Recommended: Zeal and More Testing Needed This tier is much more debated than the level 15 one. Some people prefer The Fires of Justice which is higher single target DPS if you can use CS on CD. I find this rarely ever occurs in PvP especially now with our lack of mobility so I prefer Zeal which deals more damage on a longer CD and also can cleave. Greater Judgment is also not bad, this tier needs to be tested more. Level 45 Recommended: Fist of Justice Logic here for Fist is very similar to WoD, the other 2 talents are mostly used if you want to strategize around them. Repentance is somewhat improved in the fact that it doesn't use the CD if you cast it on a Beast, but you'll require a lot of effort to land it especially on Druids. Blind is essentially the same as before, not very useful unless you want to rush a game. Level 60 Recommended: Virtue's Blade or Blade of Wrath Burst vs Consistent Damage. Divine Hammer lowers the damage too much to be used in an arena setting, but perhaps in Battlegrounds it could be used. Level 75 Recommended: Any All 3 talents here are quite unique in what they do. I usually default to Eye for an Eye when I queue skirmishes since that talent is amazing for fighting Melee. If there is no melee on the opposing side any of the other 2 talents will obviously perform better. Try to use Justicar's Vengeance in stuns. Word of Glory is the best if you're not being targeted at all, but you have to be very close to your healer or whoever is getting hit (think small Holy Nova.) Level 90 Recommended: Divine Steed or Seal of Light Our Mobility in this pre-patch is horrible, and definitely needs a talent to help it. Both these talents help mobility, Divine Steed is burst and doesn't spend holy power while Seal of Light will keep us 20% faster nearly the entire game. Level 100 Recommended: Divine Purpose or Holy Wrath Holy Wrath does 50% of your missing HP as damage. This is incredible burst, but requires very specific scenarios to be used effectively and has a long CD. Divine Purpose is a more consistent choice. Glyphs Removed Gems / Enchants / Stats Gear is scaled in Arena, in general it has a much smaller relevance in PvP. This is still being tested, but the stat-priority assumption is: Strength>Versatility>Haste>Mastery>Crit Vanguardy535
[Legion] Protection Paladin Guide Welcome to Prot Paladin Guide for Legion. Full guide in proper formatting available here : Mini TL;DR ...To Skip to Discussion : ... Abilities Offensive Shield of the Righteous Charges: Somewhat reskinned Holy Power since we can still consume it with seraphim (if talented) and it’s still the only ~resource~ we actively generate. Shield of the Righteous: 16 sec CD, reduced by haste and Judgment. Active Mitigation (AM) of protection paladins. Starting with legion it also works in reducing magical damage so it somewhat makes up for loss of of divine protection. SotR also interacts with level 100 Seraphim talent, which consumes charges (including partial) for short term buff. Avenger’s Shield: 15 sec CD, reduced by haste and reset by Grand Crusader procs. One of the key dps abilities we have, going to Legion from WoD we lose the 2 extra bounces (until we obtain legendary for it), but with an artifact trait, it can also do a small aoe pulse around each target hit; therefore we can safely pick up adds from range. Furthermore it interrupts initial target, making caster npcs come to us. Hammer of the Righteous: 4.5 sec CD, reduced by haste. Our filler ability; does extra aoe when we’re standing in consecration and has a chance to trigger Grand Crusader to reset Avenger’s Shield cooldown. When talented into Consecrated Hammer it always AoEs and when talented into Blessed Hammer, it always summons a hammer which does two full spins around us, being able to hit targets multiple times. Judgment: 6 sec CD, reduced by haste. Each cast reduces cooldown on SotR, thus making Judgment our “resource generator”. Critical hits reduce the CD by twice as much. Consecration: 9 sec CD, reduced by haste. AoE pulse ability which does not follow us, furthermore increases our SotR and Light of the Protector by 20% when we are standing in it. It’s important to note that this is multiplicative x1.2 not flat 20% increase, so 35% healing will go to 42% instead of 55%. Avenging Wrath: 2 min CD - 20 sec duration, increases damage and healing by 35%. Blessings Blessing of Protection: 5 min CD. Prevents all physical damage for 10 seconds, while also dropping threat from the target. Does not prevent target from attacking. Blessing of Sacrifice: 2.5 min CD. Redirects 30% of the damage taken by target to you for 12 seconds. Blessing of Spellwarding: (Talent) 3 min CD. Replaces Blessing of Protection, prevents all magical dmg to the target for 10 seconds, does not drop threat from target. Blessing of Salvation: (Talent) 1 min CD. For 10 seconds removes all threat from target and causes them to transfer all generated threat to you. Defensive Light of the Protector: 15 sec cd, reduced by haste. Key defensive ability along with SotR. Heals us for 25% of Missing health. Further buffed by standing in consecration and artifact abilities. Ardent Defender: 2 min CD. Reduces all damage by 20% for 8 sec. If you are to die during it’s duration it prevents the killing blow and brings you up to 12% health. Cooldown further reduced by artifact traits, making it one of more frequently used defensives. Guardian of Ancient Kings: 5 min CD. Reduces all damage by 50% for 8 sec. Due to increased CD one of the more tactical cooldowns, yet still one of the strongest. Lay on Hands: 10 min CD. Heals for your maximum health. Longest cooldown of all defensive abilities, making it generally a last resort spell. Can also be cast on allies to prevent death. Eye of Tyr: 1 min CD. Artifact ability, causes damage around you, and reduces damage taken from those enemies by 25% for 9 seconds. Important to make sure that the dmg you want to reduce is cast by the target being affected and it’s not too far away. Divine Shield: 5 min CD. Prevents all damage for 8 seconds, but removes all threat for the duration. Important to taunt the target right before casting in order to get 3 sec of aggro on the boss in single target situations, dangerous to use in AoE without final stand. Flash of Light: 16% max mana, 1.5 sec cast time no cd. Heal to top yourself off while questing, has little use while in combat outside of possibly healing yourself when out of range of healers or sitting in Divine Shield. Talents Level 15 - Tier 1 Holy Shield: (Passive) Increases your block chance, allows you to block spells, and your successful blocks deal Holy damage to your attacker. Mostly used for defensive reasons, especially against dots. Problematic to use against magic nuke’s as you can not rely on it activating. Blessed Hammer: Throws a Blessed Hammer that spirals outward, dealing Holy damage to enemies that it hits, and causing them to deal 15% less damage to you on their next auto attack. Highest DPS talent in the row, and the best one for survival vs physical damage. Can hit same target multiple times, applying damage reduction each time. Spins Clockwise. Consecrated Hammer: (Passive) Hammer of the Righteous has no cooldown. Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, and Light of the Protector now always gain the benefit of Consecration. Not particularly useful unless you want a faster rotation, or experience issues picking up mobs with baseline abilities. Level 30 - Tier 2 First Avenger: (Passive) Increases the damage of Avenger's Shield by 50%, and increases the chance for its remaining cooldown to be reset by abilities and talents by 50%, but it now hits only 1 target. Possibly useful on single target fight if you need extra constant survival, but fairly weak on anything else. Bastion Of Light: 3 min CD - Immediately grants 3 charges of Shield of the Righteous. Good synergy for burst set up, especially if used with Seraphim. General go-to talent in multi-target (AoE) and single target. Crusader’s Judgment: (Passive) Judgment can also trigger Grand Crusader. Can be a dps gain in large scale AoE situations, where those enemies aren’t attacking you. Not very useful. Level 45 - Tier 3 Fist of Justice: (Passive) Judgment reduces the remaining cooldown on Hammer of Justice by 10 sec. Can be useful if encounter has stunnable adds. Repentance: Forces an enemy target to meditate, incapacitating the target and dealing up to a maximum of 25% of the target's health in damage over 1 min. Soft Crowd Control (CC) that slowly deals damage. Doesn’t have a lot of use. Blinding Light: Emits dazzling light in all directions, blinding enemies within 10 yards, dealing Holy damage and causing them to wander disoriented for 6 sec. Non-Holy damage will break the disorient effect. Instant damage and AoE CC. Due to most abilities (Except Auto Attacks and primary target HotR) dealing holy damage, can keep mobs CCed for the entire duration, while you continue to do damage. Level 60 - Tier 4 Blessing of Spellwarding: Places a blessing on a party or raid member, protecting them from all magical attacks for 10 sec. Similar to Hand of Protection, which it replaces, except instead of Physical damage it prevents Magical damage. Blessing of Salvation: Places a blessing on a party or raid member, temporarily removing all threat from the target and causing all additional threat generated to be transferred to you. Good if you need agro boost as you can put it on dps. Not particularly useful. Retribution Aura: (Passive) You deal Holy damage to any enemy whose melee attack strikes a non-tank party or raid member within 60 yards. Due to only reacting to AAs, has very limited usage outside of specific cases - mobs fixating on targets and AAing them. Level 75 - Tier 5 Hand of the Protector: Calls down the Light to heal a friendly target for 25% of the target's missing health. Reduces CD and Heal %, but allows you to cast LotP on other players. Knight Templar: (Passive) Reduces the cooldown of Divine Steed by 50% and reduces all damage taken while mounted on your Divine Steed by 20%. Good if you require extra mobility, or if you need a 20% DR cooldown with frequent access. Final Stand: (Passive) When you use Divine Shield, you also taunt all targets within 15 yards for 8 sec. Questionably usable talent, which is likely only to be needed if you need AoE taunt. Level 90 - Tier 6 Aegis of Light: 5 Min CD - Channels an Aegis of Light that protects you and all allies standing within 10 yards behind you for 6 sec, reducing all damage taken by 20%. Awkward placement and long CD, but can be useful in some fights. Judgment of Light: (Passive) Judgment now applies Judgment of Light to the target, causing the next 40 successful attacks against the target to heal the attacker. Low healing, but can help people not tick down from weakest dmg. Generally the go to talent in tier. Consecrated Ground: (Passive) Up to 6 allies standing within your Consecration receive healing every sec, and enemies within your Consecration have 50% reduced movement speed. Even lower healing than JoL, and only works on melee, but can be useful if you need to kite adds on a fight. Level 100 - Tier 7 Righteous Protector: (Passive) Shield of the Righteous reduces the remaining cooldown on Light of the Protector and Avenging Wrath by 3 sec. Default talent on ST fights, or anything with adds not lasting a long time. Also works with HotP, which allows you to use it very frequently. Seraphim:The Light temporarily magnifies your power, increasing your Haste, Critical Strike, Mastery, and Versatility. Consumes up to 2 charges of Shield of the Righteous, and lasts 8 sec per charge. Extremely useful for dps, but not that effective for survival. Can be used with partial SotR charges. Last Defender: (Passive) Each enemy within 8 yards reduces the damage that you take and increases the damage that you deal by 3%. Good on multi-target fights, or anything with large packs of adds that are clumped together. Liminara92
Retribution (7.0.3) - Updated 7/25/2016 ____________________________________________________________________ Retribution, an In-Depth Guide for PvE (7.0.3) Most recent update: 7/25/2016 ____________________________________________________________________ ... This is a Retribution Paladin DPS guide focused on providing a thorough understanding of the spec. This guide is a constant WIP and is being edited regularly. Check back often for updates. This guide is made possible by the collective efforts of the Retribution theorycrafting community, especially Solsacra and mserrano. While generally accepted as correct, much of the information provided here is ultimately theoretical and should be taken as suggestion, not gospel. Any major changes are noted in the change log (section 14, post 11). Thank you and have a nice day. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Author Information I am currently playing as Chrissinger (formerly: Svayne, Qris) @ Area 52. Paladin since Wrath, Retribution since Cataclysm. I've maintained this guide since March 2011, albeit with a couple of breaks. The easiest way to get my attention is via Twitter @mfwchris. ____________________________________________________________________ Table of Contents ____________________________________________________________________ • X ... Glossary • 1 ... What's new in Legion? • 2 ... Talents • 3 ... Rotation - 3.1 ... Single Target - 3.2 ... Multiple Target - 3.3 ... Cooldown Usage • 4 ... Greater Blessings • 5 ... Utility - 5.1 ... Defensive - 5.2 ... Healing Spells - 5.3 ... Blessings - 5.4 ... Miscellaneous • 6 ... Tier Set Bonuses • 7 ... Gearing - 7.1 ... Stat Priorities - 7.2 ... Gemming - 7.3 ... Enchants • 8 ... Consumables • 9 ... Races - 9.1 ... Alliance - 9.2 ... Horde • 10 .. Mechanics • 11 .. Addons & Macros - 11.1 .. Addons - 11.2 .. WeakAuras • 12 .. Frequently Asked ?s • 13 .. Other Resources • 14 .. Change Log ____________________________________________________________________ Glossary ____________________________________________________________________ AtA .... Ashes to Ashes AW .... Avenging Wrath BoF .... Blessing of Freedom BoJ .... Blade of Justice BoP .... Blessing of Protection BoW .... Blade of Wrath CD .... Cooldown CS .... Crusader Strike DI .... Divine Intervention DP .... Divine Purpose DS .... Divine Storm (or Divine Shield) EfaE .... Eye for an Eye EotH .... Echo of the Highlord ES .... Execution Sentence FoJ .... Fist of Justice FoL .... Flash of Light FV .... Final Verdict GBoK .... Greater Blessing of Kings GBoM .... Greater Blessing of Might GBoW .... Greater Blessing of Wisdom GCD .... Global Cooldown GJ .... Greater Judgment HoJ .... Hammer of Justice HoPo .... Holy Power HW .... Holy Wrath JV .... Justicar's Vengeance LoH .... Lay on Hands SoL .... Seal of Light SoV .... Shield of Vengeance TFoJ .... The Fires of Justice TV .... Templar's Verdict WoA .... Wake of Ashes WoG .... Word of Glory ____________________________________________________________________ Svayne745
Complete Paladin Transmogrifier Gear Guide <><><><><><> <><><><><><> <><><><><><> What is Transmogrification? "The Ethereals, emerging from the nether, will bring with them a new technology they call Transmogrification. They’re heading to the capital cities of Azeroth to set up shop and to offer adventurers a unique service -- copying the appearance of one magical item onto another. They only ask for a modest gold donation to recoup their costs." From what we have been told, an item can be re-skinned into an older, maybe cooler looking, piece of equipment. Example: "Tier 12 to look like Tier 2" What can be Transmogrified? "Placing an item into the Transmogrifier interface will offer a preview of how the item will appear once the change is applied. However, not all item pairings are compatible with Transmogrification. In general, only items that have stats can be used in the transmogrification process. You must also be able to wear both items when using this service. Ethereals don’t have much in the way of ethics, but allowing someone to appear as if they’re equipping unusable items crosses the line." Example: Plate to Plate; Mace to Mace; Staff to Staff; etc, etc. Wait! We can not modify Immolation Faceguard to Crown of Destruction? No. It is a safe assumption that the designers do not want cloth casters to appear as plate wearers or vice versa. This also includes set items such as "Warlock," "Hunter," "Mage," and "Shaman." Example: As a Paladin we can not wear Death Knight armor sets, but we can find same model items to transmogrify to. That is why this thread is being created - after all. A Short Note: Items will be required to have stats as well, Ethereals will not waste their time on Frost-Rimed Cloth Hat or Weather Beaten Buckler. This could be changed down the road, if business looks promising. A Short Note: Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, Shadowmourne, or Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros will not be able to be transmogrified at initial launch. The complexity of these magical items currently surpass the knowledge held by the Ethereals. A Short Note: Tired of leveling in that old dusty Bind on Account gear? Well do not worry, BoA gear can be transmogrified! It is important to understand that transmogrified gear is character side only. You can not transmogrify your gear, mail it to an alt and look like you're in Tier 12 at level 10. But you are more than welcome to collect quest items, build an outfit, and transmogrify at your hearts content! A Short Note: Weapon art will be the only thing that is transmogrified. If you have a weapon with Power Torrent and transmogrify it to another weapon with, say crusader, the transmogrified weapon will show up with Power Torrent. <><><><><><> <><><><><><> <><><><><><> ... <><><><><><> <><><><><><> <><><><><><> All ideas, armor sets, and unique weapons are welcome! Start bragging about your favorite armor configurations! A Short Note: The Dark Moon will be bringing back some novelty items in 4.3; so get ready for some skee ball and collect those tickets! PvP Gear and Tier 3 is likely returning.[/i] Duplicate skins shared on two or more items will be listed in order of ease to acquire. <><><><><><> <><><><><><> <><><><><><> Ðj320
Jul 11
Welcome Paladins: Please Read! Welcome to the Paladin forum! This forum is here to provide you with a friendly environment where you can discuss the paladin class with your fellow World of Warcraft players. Community forums work best when participants treat their fellow posters with respect and courtesy, so we ask that you take the time to read through the forum Code of Conduct ( and guidelines ( before posting. Important Reminders: Search The search function at the top of the World of Warcraft community site is extremely effective and robust. Before you create a new forum topic, please be use it to search for similar topics, blog posts, or web pages that may contain the answer for which you are looking. Making a new thread on an existing subject can result in your thread being deleted or, if you continue to re-post the same content, the loss of your forum privileges for spamming. Rating The forum rating system can be used to promote positive discussion, demote unhelpful comments, and even report posts that violate the forum Code of Conduct. By hovering over a post you'll be presented with several options, including a "thumbs up" (Like) and a "thumbs down" (Dislike) icon. Clicking the "thumbs up" icon will rate the post up. If enough people like a post, it will gain a Highly Rated status and appear at the top of related search results. Highly Rated posts will also have a highlighted background. Clicking the "thumbs down" icon will expand a drop-down menu which will include "Dislike," "Trolling, "Spam" and "Report" options. "Dislike" will rate the post down. If enough people dislike a post, it will be darkened, and with a lot of dislikes it will be hidden completely. You can also quickly report a post as trolling or spam, or use the report function to fill out a more comprehensive description of a violation. Please note that you can only rate each post once. Use your power wisely to help foster a positive and helpful forum community. Have fun posting on these forums, and good luck with your adventures in Azeroth! Lylirra1
Oct 26, 2010
I am getting tired of the Ret hate. I'm getting really tired of the "Let's hate on Ret" in every forum I go to, every twitch stream I watch, and anything WoW related. I feel like it's a misinformed bandwagon. Especially the people who claim that Ret is borderline unplayable. Ret does have a mobility problem in PVP. This could easily be solved by giving them some sort of gap closer. But honestly, that is it. Ret's damage output is great, they hit like trucks. Honestly playing both my Ret and my Arms, my Ret has been hitting harder. I also don't understand the complaints about the boring rotation of Rets. Honestly most classes have it worse. Arms warriors have been reduced to almost 3 buttons. Heck Ret's judgment mechanic is basically a more complicated version of Arms CS mechanic. And then you have fury which I feel like is very spammy. I could talk about the rotation of many classes who have like 3 to 4 abilities and ret has more than that. Not to mention Ashbringer gives an actual ability that fits into Rets rotation, unlike most artifact abilities which have much longer CDs. Then people point to the class forum that has 115+ pages. Have you actually read the thread? It's mostly people just going back and forth with ideas, half the time it has nothing to do with the class. I just don't understand the Ret hate, even from an objective standpoint. The ret hate seems to have stemmed from some misinformed opinion that just took off. Now people just regurgitate "Ret's are terrible" with no actual knowledge. Dumbhammer24
2m 25m 50m
The Light is fading... I love how Blizzard showed off Ashbringer to us at Blizzcon as basically the first Artifact weapon. I was so happy that we were finally going to be able to wield it.(Besides Corrupted Ashbringer which i never got sadly). I was like there is going to be so much Lore and everything with Paladins this expansion. Then months later we see what is in store for the mighty Paladin. Ashbringer is nothing like the lore. This Ultimate Holy Artifact is laughable. Morgraine is turning in his grave. Blizzard made this weapon nothing like it was in the Lore. Then on top of that the class changes. The Mighty Paladin has fallen so far from grace. Paladins have never really been gods but they were relatively pretty strong most of their lives. Wrath we Divine Stormed people to death which was so satisfying. I was sadly hacked during Cata and didnt come back till Mop but i know from the time i was around during those time i loved my Paladin even tho we went through some rough patches. In WoD i felt very weak in the beginning but then then the world changed after a few months. Hellfire came and i was topping meters and was a beast in the PVE scene with my guild. Then the dreaded day of prepatch day came. We lost so much. Spells we had since Vanilla, the amazing choices of our talent trees which could completely change how we played if we wanted. Now the Mighty Paladin is like a dying star. The Light is fading from the Holy Warriors of Horde and Alliance. We can charge into battle but the Light does not follow us anymore. It does not come when i call for aid. Our Dps is fine but the fun and enjoyment of Throwing a Hammer into someone and finishing our Judgement of evil is gone. Hopefully Blizzard will realize the mistake of taking our Light away. We went from Warriors of Light to just Warriors. We are no longer the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of Evil in Azeroth. Sadly it is time to join the legion of the Dead. Embrace the powers of dread and despair. The Children of the Lich King will take the Fight to the Demons where the Light will not Shine. Only Death will reign. Tankindude5
51m 56m 1h
Discussion: Holy as Melee Healers (Legion) I. Preface: I've played melee healers before in other games such as a Bear Shaman in AoC & Captain in Lotr-online. So I feel confident that it is doable and can be really good. So let's just talk about the vision of what a Holy Paladin is supposed to be and see if we can give some type of reasonable feedback on how to improve the class to better fit the design idea of a Melee Healer that properly synergizes with our new Mastery: Lightbringer. Contents: I. Preface II. Disclaimer III. Overall Analysis IV. Offensive Abilities Assessment A. Solutions V. Defensive Abilities Assessment A. Solutions VI. Talents Assessment A. Solutions VII. Suggestions for Seals VIII. Closing (TL:DR) II. Disclaimer: I am in no way saying that these are the only possibilities for bringing the class in line with their vision. I just wanted to offer some suggestions to get the ball rolling and have a healthy discussion about this topic and felt complaining without offering anything constructive is not helpful. This is a long post. You've been warned. III. Overall Analysis: I feel there are some core issues with Holy Paladins right now. I don't feel there is a good synergy between our Mastery: Lightbringer and our actual abilities. Our healing synergy with Lightbringer feels so lackluster overall since we are expected to be in melee range most of the time (before level 100 when you can get BotL). Why not make our heals based off of our damage output so we can use our melee combat animations? I feel that the game could use a melee healer, and Paladin is the perfect candidate. With a sword and a shield they stand at the front of the fight taking the fight to the enemy, inspiring and healing their allies with their righteous vengeance. Lastly, while I do agree that the seals were very lackluster before they were removed I can't help but feel that they could be improved instead of removed. IV. Offensive Abilities Assessment: Crusader Strike, Consecration, Holy Shock and Judgement . It is nice that these do more damage than before. This does make leveling or playing as a Shockadin better. If I waste a GCD on Crusader, Consecration, Judgement or an offensive Holy Shock.. I feel like I've wasted too much time to catch up to the amount of damage being dealt out to the tank/dps without using Light of the Martyr. It simply doesn't feel good or work well without Bestow Faith. While I do like the mobility using a combination of BF & LotM/HS/HP/LoD for quick insta heals on the go.. I just think it would be more thematically interesting to heal based on melee combat animations. A. Solutions: So how could these abilities be fixed to fit more in line with the idea of a "melee healer"? 1. An idea would be to separate our offensive and healing GCDs. (Probably not going to happen but would help out alot if no other changes were able to be made.) 2. Another idea would be giving offensive damage to healing abilities and healing to our offensive abilities, for example: a. Holy shock & Holy Prism are ok as they are.. But what about Crusader strike, Judgement, consecration? Those abilities could really use some love.. *See Seals* b, Crusader strike should be augmented with a healing component such as "Your Crusader Strikes cause a healing wave to be emitted from you" (eg, Landing a Crusader Strike triggers a Holy Radiance effect). *See Seals* c. Consecration could be changed to offer a heal efficiency buff for allies who stand in it.. Something like "Allies who stand on the consecrated ground are healed for X% more from "you" or "from all sources" (which ever balanced out better), which would have a great synergy with our Mastery: Lightbringer. *See Seals* d.The talent "Judgement of Light" should be a baked in part of the baseline ability of Judgements. *See Seals* V. Healing Abilities Assessment: We have a very, very boring rotation. Shock, FoL, FoL, FoL, FoL, Shock, LoM (when needed). Flash of Light heals for maybe 5-10% of the targets HP and costs a lot of Mana, but has a shorter cast time and lower mana cost than Holy Light yet it heals the exact same amount as Holy Light. The spell Light of Dawn is wholly ineffective since we are supposed to be "the Melee ranged healer" because it is a cone. It would have made more sense if they had removed LoD and kept Holy Radiance (AOE).. because we wouldn't have to turn and face who we are supposed to be healing. In all honesty, I find both Holy Light and Light of Dawn in their current form to not even be worth using atm. If Holy Light healed for significantly more HP as an (Oh S*** heal) that is fast & expensive it would be useful. I'd rather run out of mana quickly but save a tank after being stunned, holy locked, or having to move (eg limited healing), than have a huge mana pool and a dead tank/team. A. Solutions: I believe that done right our healing style could be truly unique in WoW, we would actually become a true Paragon of the Light (aka a melee healer) and capture the essence of Blizzard's vision of the class. Seals could be used to add flavor but overall we would be unlike any other healer in the game and have our niche. 1. Holy Light - Give it a CD, Make it heal for a lot (25-35% at least), and give it a debuff applied to nearby enemies. Such as "Enemies near an ally healed with Holy Light take X% more damage for Xs" or "Enemies nearby an ally healed with Holy Light cannot critically hit for Xs" (Denounce debuff), or "Enemies nearby an ally healed with Holy Light have their haste reduced y X%" (Enemies near your target can be altered to your target's target if they prove to be too strong) *See Seals* 2. Light of Dawn - Give a secondary effect as a damage component to LoD as a semi-long CD (10.9s with my current gear/level) it should have a good aoe burst dps option. Something like "heals all allies in a cone in front of you for X and deals damage equal to the amount of healing it did evenly distributed to all enemies caught in it. *See Seals* 3. Flash of Light - It is a simple fast, low healing spell that is not really any different than a Priest's basic heal. There is nothing special about it other than, it is what you will spend your entire life spamming the hell out of in the current system. Give it a small absorb bubble like we had as our old Mastery at the very least or a HoT effect like our old flame. In this new setup, it really would serve only as a filler heal or healing when their is no enemies nearby to target so I would prefer a small HoT attached to it. 4. Light of the Martyr - I don't feel this ability fits in line with a Paladin. It is more of a Blood/Death Magic/Warlock type spell. Honestly, I'd just recommend removing this altogether. If you insist on keeping it then why not make it something like this, "After Xs enemies who have dealt damage to the target have X% of the damage dealt back to them as holy damage". VI. Talents Assessment: In their current form they are meh. Not really exciting, there is often a clear "BiS" option you have to take for Healing or playing a Shockadin. Really the most interesting one is the first row, a heal or 2 dps options, I think that it's a hard choice that will end up being more of a flavor choice. After that is a "do you want to have any speed boost or not option? Not very exciting really. The next interesting choice is 45. Different stun options. Those are pretty good. 60 is gimicky.. After some testing I believe a clear winner will emerge in efficiency and the rest will be for people who don't know any better. 75/90/100 are also ok as they are. Maybe someone else can think of some better options to go there. These would change greatly based on which (if any) ideas from this thread get used for synergy reasons. A. Solutions: *To be completed later VII. Discussing Seals: I believe seals could be an interesting extension to our utility as a Holy Paladin. I believe they could have either the original idea of breaking a seal to unlock an effect or altering the secondary effect of all of our other abilities. A. Such as "While this seal is active you get a passive boost to your speed/healing/damage" with seal break effects that stop your passive bonus and give you a temporary larger boost. 1. Seal of Command - You deal X% more damage for Xs when this seal is broken. 2. Seal of Clemency - You move X% faster for Xs when this seal is broken. 3. Seal of Light - Your healing spells are increased by X% for Xs. B. Alter the effects of all of our abilities. The idea behind this would be more damage focused, more healing focused or more mobility focused. So I will just give one example and you can figure out the rest. 1. Seal of Command - All of your single target abilities become AOE abilities but hit for X% less damage. 2. Seal of Clemency - All of your attacks inspire nearby allies giving them a small boost for Xs. (+crit/damage/speed/haste/etc) 3. Seal of Light - All of your abilities are now single target but heal for X% more. VIII. Closing (TL/DR): I don't dislike the direction they said they were going for this class. I just feel in it's current form it is too clunky and boring to really catch the spirit and make me say.. yeah this is great! It feels good, take my money! A few slight tweaks could make it feel good, be useful, have a niche and be desirable for all content. Thanks for reading and I look forward to what other ideas different people have on this subject. Xaun18
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Some more ret stuff in pvp After playing around with it in random bgs: I have to say these: The loss of hammer of wrath was really bad. Given we don't have much mobility either, the enemy can just run away with low heal and we can't do anything about it. The point if that spell was to execute people at long range when they ran away. BOP is very trivial and too weak of utility to be worth the 5 minute cooldown because it's too easily purgable now. However, if it can't be purged then it would be overpowered becuase it does not pacify the target. A lot say that their rotation is similar to arms because of colossus smash - I'd say it's more along the lines of a rogue because you have to keep dots and debuffs up in order to take full advantage of your HP dump. Execution sentence still blows as the you can't pop a heal on a dying ally. It only works in random bgs because people don't even bother trying to cleanse. Bad mobility, but this has already been touched upon to death. The greater blessing system sucks. Fire and forget, can't be used in combat (so I've heard), and doesn't offer any dispel protection. Not having sac is a big deal as it wasn't only used for magic cleansing, but in case I run into a team that doesn't have any magic CC (turbo), it would serve as good defensive because they would tunnel my healer.------------------------------------------------------------- The only positive is that we seem to do better damage without requiring wings, but that said, ret feels very limited in which all I can really do is DPS. Ret has done good DPS AND provided excellent utility, same with all other classes (pures and hybrids both), and for the most part classes were balanced (except S5 dks obliterating everyone with icy touch). Especially since if every class can only deal damage, one class will always be better than another at any given patch. Right now, I could probably play double-warlock/rdruid or something because warlocks are just plain tankier than any other caster while offering nearly the exact same tools any other class would, while rotting entire teams with ebola and aids or something. My point is that it's not ok to only separate classes by themes, and if you look past a ret's "holy warrior" theme you will realize that a ret is almost exactly like a warrior, like a rogue, like an enhancement shaman. Only with worse mobility. You get the idea. While I'm still attempting to experiment with different talent setups, of course though, I have yet to figure out that class I want to play. EDIT: I just played against double-lock/rdruid. They just tunneled my healer to the ground and I couldn't do anything. This is so cancer. EDIT 2: Okay, greater judgement + divine storm means that if you can manage to get their entire arena team together, you can do hilarous amounts of cleave damage. --------------------------------------------------- CONCLUSION: If there's one thing rets can bring to the table, it's large amounts of cleave damage, using Greater Judgement in conjunction with Divine Storm and Wake of Ashes (so for those of you whining about not getting into RBG teams, whine no more). However, this does not offset the amount of utility, and mobility they lack (read the aforementioned bullet points I made above). (They have about as much survivability as most other melee DPS.) It sucks when a boomkin can powershift my Hand of Hindrance and pillar me (seriously, with so many snare breakers in the game, HoH is almost worthless). Fist of Justice has anti-synergy with JV because JV costs 5 HP (meaning your using less HP spenders -> you're reducing HoJ cooldown less often) and because you can't use the stun to CC the healer anymore (unless you plan on killing the healer). Perhaps if a better player like Vanguards or something could confirm or deny my conclusion, you're welcome to. In a 3s setting, Always put wisdom on your healer. Put kings on whoever you think will be the kill target, and put might on the DPS who won't be the kill target. Varies based on what comp you are and what comp you're fighting against. Finally, I get it. Not many people here like the mastery. I honestly don't like it either, but at least I can adapt to the change. I cannot, however, tolerate losing our utility as well, another slap in the face. --------------------------------------------- I am still actively trying to figure out how rets in arenas and PvP is still supposed to work, but for now, I will conclude the OP at this spot. Britishguy39
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For Those Forsaking Retribution in Legion... I will be going into Legion shining brightly and proudly empowered by the Light as Retribution while wielding the powerful Ashbringer against the armies of the Burning Legion! Brothers and sisters in arms thinking about forsaking the Light... please take a moment to read... It seems like every thread I enter people are looking at the "trees" of pre-patch and not the "forest" of Legion when it comes to how we are only still 100 but balanced for 110 w/ our artifact weapon... BUT this thread isn't just a "wait for ashbringer lol /endthread". I am actually going to list out many (not all) traits and PVP talents that will for sure change the way our spec feels and plays when the actual expansion drops. I think once some fellow Ret Paladins actually see these listed out it might help them at least stick around to try the spec before jumping ship. For those of you complaining about lack of buttons to press, rotation slowness, HP starvation, or damage: - Ashbringer has "Wake of Ashes" on only a 30s CD that does really good damage to all enemies in front of us - "Ashes to Ashes" is a trait for Ashbringer that gives you FIVE Holy Power every time you use "Wake of Ashes", and adds an impressive DoT (great opener) - Several artifact traits you can unlock greatly increase damage and crit to skills like Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, Judgement, Divine Storm, etc., and even add more length to Avenging Wrath. For those of you complaining that our utility, defensives, or healing for ourselves or others is non-existent as Ret right now: - There's an artifact trait that reduces BoP's cooldown by 30% - There's an artifact trait that reduces forbearance by 10 seconds - There's an artifact trait that adds AOE healing to Divine Storm - There's an artifact trait that increases FoL's heal amount by 45%! - There's and artifact trait that reduces Shield of Vengeance by 30seconds (bringing it down to a 1.5min cooldown!) For those of you complaining about the current lack of mobility, constantly getting kited, or having zero range right now: - There's an artifact trait called "Unbreakable Will" that makes Ashbringer break you free if you are "unable to act in combat" for more than 2 seconds, and can occur every 2 minutes! - There is a PVP talent that adds a 20% movement speed increase to Blessing of Freedom - There is a PVP talent (on the same line as the above talent) that reduces your Hand of Hindrance cooldown if it is dispelled, and also adds a 3 second Hand of Hindrance effect to Blade of Justice! If BoJ is replaced w/ Blade of Wrath then that is a very quickly reapplied slow! - There is a PVP talent that instantly breaks all stun, silence, fear, and horror affects, and reduces any more incoming ones by 60% on a 25 second cooldown! - There's an artifact trait that causes Divine Storm to not only do AOE damage around you, but project itself 20 yards forward damaging all enemies in its path And this is just me looking over the Ashbringer calculator here: And lightly skimming the PVP talents here: I haven't even looked at or mentioned any of the Legendary gear you can get, or it's effects/bonuses. I know a lot of people are saying "We shouldn't be balanced for 110. We shouldn't be balanced w/ our Artifact weapon" etc. The fact of the matter is, we are balanced for 110 now. Some specs (Ret especially) are very much balanced and reliant on their artifact weapon and its traits to complete it. Also, why is everyone complaining about PVP at all when literally no class has their PVP talents unlocked yet? They made a ton of changes to all the classes guys, probably more so than any expansion, and they did it in an expansion focused almost entirely on the adventure and aspect of us having an immense and heroic weapon of power as our "partner" with us. Of course they are going to tie a ton of class identity to the artifact weapon. It basically becomes an extension of our character itself! It's one of the main selling/bullet points of the entire Legion expansion. I know people might say "well I am playing the Beta and it sucks there too!" To which I would say: They can still tune and fix things, and still are tuning and tweaking things up until the last minute. Don't believe me? Checkout Blessing of Sanctuary on WoWHead (the 25 second stun breaking talent I listed above). It just got a bug fix literally yesterday. Isaaic10
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Holy Paladin Ok, iv been playing a holy paladin since right before BC came out. Iv always been able to eventually adjust when the new expansions came out. I have been trying to adjust to this new healing but I don't seem to be making any progress. I like to pvp mostly but ever since patch it feels like I'm going in slow motion (to move, cast spells, ect) I feel/am way less survivable than I used to be. Now I'm not the best at pvp bgs but I consider myself a little above average. I'm amost at a 60% win rate in the statistics. Is anybody else having problems adjusting. I want to play a holy pally but I don't like the way our healing Is trending. The reason I know I'm less survivable is in the bg where you have flags and take the cart as well. When I get the cart and there are one or two on me I cant make it even 20 yards. I used to be able to get to almost mid-field without any help. They nerfed holy shock, they nerfed holy wrath, and they took away the burst hammer healing spell and the took away sacred shield. I don't see anything positive that we got. We do have an instant spell that takes health when we cast it (which I think is crap anyways). Bestowed faith is kinda stupid, half the time they die before it comes to heal. I just don't get how holy paladins are viable anymore. 9 times out of 10 I would be top heals in bgs. Not because we were overpowered but because I was good at my class. You could rotate holy wrath, the burst hammer spell and divine shield to give you somewhat survivability. Now I'm just a slow moving slow casting healer with a ridiculous cooldown on holy shock and wrath. I'm interested on how well ill do in raiding. Any feedback would be appreciated, I wanna know what you other paladins think. Lightbrave3
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Prot Paladin - Constructive Critisism This was a blue post on another thread -- reposting for feedback ... I play a prot paladin -- reasons it's needs quality improvements and is currently not a fun class/spec to play anymore. 1) Im ilvl 721 and in heroic dungeons if i dont roll CDs (on 5 min cd) pulling 2 groups of mobs kills me because I have no real self healing or mitigation anymore. EDIT: fixed with alteration to spec and found better healers - able to perform in mythic dungeons effectively but still clunky, imo. ... 2) lack of mobility due to removal of glyphs and certain talents -- this horse charge thing is bollocks, institute long arm of the law on judgement, and have consencration follow us (add the glyph/talent to the ability - or make that the talent instead of the horse charge). or make Turalyon’s Might (tele/charge) universal for Paladins - it's in other games and definitely fits class fantasy (see HoTs and Diablo Paladins/Crusaders for reference - it's where steed and blessed hammers came from). Ideally I would like to be able to get to groups of mobs, lay down consecration(have it follow me incase I have to move out of stuff that would kill me) and have threat before the groups start going ham! 3) lack of self healing -- seals went away, yet AoE was made easier so seal of righteousness was not needed anymore, but where are my effects of seal of insight? I shouldnt be dying or "not feel epic" against mobs I've been trolling all expansion. Judgement of light nor is consecrated ground talent an acceptable alternative to what we had, it doesn't provide substantial healing. With current healing being a % of "missing health," it's just not a heal that's capable to sustain you. Even with the HoT added later to the heal ability, which I've seen in the Beta, I still believe we need slightly better control over our own healing. 4) Camera Distance - as a tank, I cant see anything behind or around me if a big boss is in the way. Its annoying. 5) If classes are tuned to be played with artifact weapons in mind - give us the artifact weapons/questline already. Why should it matter if we're a little bit OP the last month of an expansion, rather than being so under-powered that we get rick-rolled by basic mobs. I understand the changes to secondary stats, but making those changes as well as taking away our survivability, and making our rotation boring -- you're in fact killing a class. I'm not asking for OP-ness, I just want to be able to do half of what what I was previously doing and not die, as I can't even do that. Having played a bit in the Beta I know things get better, but there are still quality improvements, I believe, that need to be made within the class and the protection spec. The rotation is a button mash and we have no real resource management. The one class Holy Power worked for you took it away from. As stated by someone else, "If you can stand in consencrate hit judgement and other abilities on CD you can tank as paladin." If I can barely survive in heroic dungeons and LFR - how am I at my ilvl who is supposed to be able to go to mythic raiding or even continue with heroic raiding, be able to play "current content" if I cant stay alive. Ìndex52
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