Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011
Musings: How Ignorant Cries Killed Ret I don't know if any of you are thinking of trying retribution for PvP in cataclysm - but with with my current limited perspective it just does not seem a very good idea. The post-cataclysm design mantra seems to have been, "prevent high initial dps in pvp at all costs and curtail the tradition of survivability." Let me give a little back-story: I came to retribution midway through season 6, played it diligently in season 7, and left the game early in season 8 only to return within the last couple weeks. The majority of games were with a discipline priest in 2v2 and will be the subject of focus. Due to timing and quality of initial ret set during season 6, my PvP gear did not reach optimum though I was quickly in the best arena gear available in season 7. The prevailing opinion during season 7 if one read much of the forums was that ret paladins were overpowered in PvP. This opinion, at least as applicable to arena, was wrong - and here is what I'm basing this on: For my 2v2 team in season 6, I was roughly in the top 10 teams containing a retribution paladin - this rating was not good enough for gladiator. In season 7, our 2v2 had the highest rated Ret / Priest team in the battlegroup. This was not good enough for gladiator. I think there was maybe one Ret / Shaman team that made it after the very large resto shaman buffs that came late in the season. It should be noted that my Battlegroup is Bloodlust and it contains many of the original, high-population PvP servers and it is very competitive compared to the collection of battlegroups. I know of many players that struggled with reaching gladiator in Bloodlust and were able to easily obtain it with server transfers in the past. The root of this issue is that the balance of power shuffles dramatically from fresh max-level gear to max-level optimal PvP gear and furthermore shifts between 1v1, disorganized random battlegrounds, & arenas with teams committed to working together. During, at least S6, I will be the first to admit retribution paladins were among the most capable duelists at most gear levels, second only to death knights. Furthermore they could blatantly overpower most players as fresh 80s in a mish mash of sub optimal PvE nax gear. These areas seem to be the root of public opinion. But these strengths really lost their potency factoring in optimal PvP gear & most importantly - a team with a healer. Considering that arena was the only route to the optimal gear, and gear in this game accounts for nearly all of character strength, I find it hard to see sub-competitive experiences as relevant. So where are we now? The opinions of a player base largely not participating in competitive PvP seem to have resonated with developers and the class/spec seems to have been attacked from multiple angles to prevent burst damage from ever, easily, happening. The highest damage melee strike, Templar's Verdict, does laughable damage without 3 holy power charges, and those charges typically develop slowly. The highest damage seal, Seal of Truth, requires significant time to reach 5 stacks and is generally unattractive for breaking the spec defining CC: repentance. The remaining heavy hitter, exorcism, requires a seldom available on-hit effect. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't mean to idly complain. And in my case, I believe I'll simply be going with another class for wrath, if I prefer to play a dps in pvp. Which saddens me because choosing a paladin appears to still give the player a, if not the, premiere tank. But in reading and listening to a lot of player chatter about PvP and the sweeping statements of "that is OP", "that sucks" often appears incredibly naive. This wouldn't bother me so much if that banter didn't appear actually have an impact on class development. I wish that more experienced and reasonable perspectives would echo more clearly & gain more momentum. Being that it is unlikely - I just needed to get these thoughts off my chest. Careless27
Jun 20, 2011
The Word of Glory nerf is too much Summary: If you understand & agree with why WoG shouldn’t be nerfed, request a sticky (top right) and “like” this post (right). If not, read on. After reading several dozen threads protesting the WoG nerf, I have decided to summarise their arguments. 1) (PVP) WoG is necessary for our survival. Ret paladins lack a snare, a reliable gap-closer and other utilities given to other DPS classes. Our two strong CCs each have a 1-minute cooldown. The ability to heal ourselves is our sole reason we can endure kiting and our inability to avoid attacks. 2) (PVP) WoG is “what we bring to the table”. Without the ability to snare, peel or apply heavy CC often, teammates rely on our healing to remain competitive. Paladins cannot effectively prevent an enemy rogue from attacking their priest, but they can ensure that their priest lives by healing them. Rather than prevent the rogue’s 50,000 damage by slowing, peeling or CCing them, they can heal 28,000 of it with WoG. If we cannot heal, cleanse, snare, peel, or rely on CC, paladins cannot support anyone in PVP reliably. 3) (PVP) Arena representation is fine. Of the top 100 arena teams (300-500 individuals), there are less than 8 ret paladins (approx 2%). On the assumption that blizzard hopes for equal class/spec representation, this is only substantially below the ideal goal. 4) (PVE) DPS specs shouldn’t care about healing in PVE. This is not an argument, but a common stance held by many ret-PVErs. Whatever your stance, ret-PVP relies on healing, and many PVE paladins (who do not believe the DPS chart is all-important) heal often. 5) (PVE) Why should paladin DPS match that of a rogue if they can heal? Paladins cannot heal while matching an equally skilled/geared rogue’s DPS. The choice to heal comes at the sacrifice of DPS. 6) Adding a cooldown will nerf many talents. Divinity, Eternal Glory, Protector of the Innocent, Last Word, Selfless Healer are directly nerfed. Zealotry, Divine Purpose, Persuit of Justice and Rule of Law are nerfed indirectly, by making holy power accumulation less appealing. Finally, and most importantly - the “definition of a hybrid” A recent blue post stated that “Our definition of hybrid is a class that can respec to tank or heal…”. This definition is drastically out of synch with the public’s most popular interpretation; that a hybrid class is one that combines aspect of healer/DPS/tank in their mode of play. It is unnecessary and unfair to change the definition of hybrid when so many people have invested their time developing their hybrid characters with this in mind. Alternatives to nerfing WoG: (I recommend none of these) - Reduce the healing value of WoG (adjusted via holy talents, so that holy spec is not affected). - Nerf selfless healer. - Allow paladins to cleanse magic. - Give paladins a snare. - Lower the cooldown of HoJ and/or Repentence. Sacrednemo190
Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011
The only thing worse... The only thing worse then what Blizz does to paladins is when they try to explain WHY they are doing it. examples: •We buffed Word of Glory for three reasons: We felt Holy Power was mattering less to Holy paladins than it did at Cataclysm launch. We wanted to provide more uninterruptible healing in PvP. We knew Light of Dawn was trumping Word of Glory in almost all cases in 25-player raids. Ok so ever since they stuck paladins with this "holy combo point" system, they have been trying to force us into using it, However everytime we use if effectively (*cough* WoG *cough*) they say "wait no don't use it like that, that's too good" "here try this" Again trying to pigeon hole Paladins back into the Vanilla healer role. They try to make it sound good by saying they are buffing WoG, but think we are trading a free, instant, aoe heal for a heal (that with beacon) can heal 2 people. •We concluded PvE Holy paladins were ending fights with too much mana relative to other healers, so we raised the mana cost of their single-target heals. Really? I'm not a big raider but I've seen in 5 mans even so-so geared druids and shaman come out of fights with 50%-75% of their mana and scaling gear up to a good raid level I can't imagine that changes too much I have only fair healing gear but I can run a heroic with a good tank, and really if I could change 1 thing it would just be to extend the duration of beacon so I don't have to waste time recasting it all the time. I'll admit I haven't healed a raid, but if Light of dawn is working well for paladins just leave it alone. Why would you nerf a spell that makes people actually want a paladin healer for raids? Finally, •We buffed Holy Radiance both to help PvE paladins feel like they could make larger contributions to raid healing (especially in light of the single-target nerfs) but also as part of a significant buff to Speed of Light to let Holy paladins have more mobility in PvP. •We made a tweak to Holy’s mastery to allow its bubble to stack, so it would be wasted less often when healing a single target. They first come out and say single target is getting nerfed and the very next line seems to tell you to single target heal so that you can stack the bubble. * all lines with • are taken directly from the patch notes * Soulrage3
Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011
Ret Needs Their Survivability Back Since the patch got postponed another week, how bout a little more Ret love before 4.2 hits? 10 Second WoG 'MIGHT' be ok(I'm trying to stay optimistic), thanks for at least doing that much, even tho now we are FORCED to spec into a talent that we otherwise may not have wanted, depending on what we're planning on doing, just because 10 sec WoG is two times less gimp than 20 sec WoG. But you could at least return something to us to improve our survivability in return for nerfing Sacred Shield. You've left us sitting ducks again, feeling like we're balanced around a 5 minute bubble that's extremely easy to get rid of, not to mention it barely lasts long enough to cast 2 mana engulfing Divine Lights. So.... I ask... What happened to Hand of Freedom breaking stun effects? Why does Bliz feel that it's appropriate this ability so detrimental to us surviving and catching targets is able to not only be dispelled, but easily stolen by skilless Mages just spamming spellsteal. You know, I wish all the flame over WoG could have got our cooldown 100% removed, like you guys did for mages. Instead all they got was the mana cost doubled. You really think that's going to stop Mages from spamming it? They're not going to get in mana trouble, and even if they did, they would just sheep you and go Evocate. I'm also not sure why you guys feel it's appropriate for Affliction Locks, givin the clearly overbuffed damage they now have, to allow them to heal themselves for the gross amounts they do now. Rogues are the same way, Recuperate needs dealing with as well. I'll give you guys credit you're on the right track to fixing the 'I don't need a healer anymore' problem in PvP, but until you nerfed Glyph of Dark Succor, you were attacking all the wrong classes. You've been taking self heals away from utility and true hybrid classes, like Rets for one, and giving them to classes that don't have any business being able to recover health on their own in combat, such as the locks/rogues/warrs. You guys really need to wake up and realize the biggest problem in PvP is the self healing ability that you have graciously spread among everyone this expansion. I would gladly trade off my bubble to have the heals and defensive ability of Warriors right now, espcially when you couple it with their grossly overpowered damage output(I give you credit though you're going in the right direction nerfing Wars this patch, let's just see if you nerfed them ENOUGH.) I'd like to see Ret the way it was the previous patch where Sac Shield is 30 sec ICD and WoG had no cooldown again. It would be nice when left in a 1v1 situaition in an Arena, to see every class and spec have a fighting chance against one another, and not just be able to push the 'my cooldowns are better than yours' button. But you guys don't seem to be able to fathom this idea somehow. Another tip, shattering throw needs to be interruptable, I mean why should they have an ability with a cast bar, that is not possible to interrupt? At least have some kind of strategy built into the ability, possibly make it where a Holy Pal has to pop aura mastery first, if the warrior expects to have his cast go off unhinged. Búzz6
Jun 20, 2011 Jun 20, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
So just finished the Keeshan quest On a hunter alt. Lol pally sidekick who gets killed all the time (quest is currently broken) and whines about how he wakes up sometimes feeling like all his power's been drained. He contemplates being a warrior because they slice faces. Got me thinking of a couple questions. What is Blizzard's image of the ideal Paladin class? Is this how Blizzard sees Paladin players? What should be the difference between a Paladin and a warrior? What's *your* image of the ideal Paladin class? What classes should we lose to? What classes should we win against? WHY IS ZIN'ROHK SO SMALL ON BELF FEMALES /breathe I don't have much of an answer. I originally got into Warcraft during Warcraft II; if you played Orcs you knew what a !#%% fight it was to fight multiple paladins, because they kept healing each other and you were like OH GOD WHYYYYYY (secret attempt at trying to recruit a 5v5 all-pally team btw). Also, I think we need more hammers. This character personally uses the Conquest Axe, but next time I am SOOOO going for the mace (I wish 1handed Mace + Shield + ret was doable somehow, but whatevs). I know I'm not making any sense, but imagine you're (yes, *you*, not your parody of one) a dev hanging around the local watercooler, and you're asked what you see the ideal paladin. More damage? Different weapons? Should Horde even have them? WHY ZINROHK ITS LIKE SO BIG ON EVERYONE ELSE FFFFFF PS. Finishing Keeshan's quest line means that I know have the Keeshan Bow + Eyepatch from Stockades. I never want to lose them. Ever. ;_; why is levelling so fast Thaala10
Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
I Had a Dream... I literally dreamt this and it kept me up for a while last night as I thought it out in bed. Ret paladins want a snare, yet blizzard doesn't want to give it to us because it would be just like every other melee class and be detrimental to the flavor of paladins. I dreamt of a solution. Eye For an Eye - All magic attacks against you have a 40% chance to cause 30% of the damage taken back to the attacker as well. 2/2 This is obviously a pvp talent, yet most top end rets dont take it because it's damage is very random and there are much more valuable talents for pvp that take presidence. I thought of a way to make it 100% better, give rets a unique type of snare, and stay with the flavor of paladins AND the talent itself! Eye For an Eye - All magic attacks against you have a 40% chance to cause 30% of the damage taken back to the attacker as well. In addition, your judgement has a (50/100%) chance to reduce the enemies movement speed equal to that of the paladin. Lasts 8 seconds. What would this mean?? It means that if no one is on you, or if you were to judge with freedom on yourself, the enemy would recieve 0 snare. But if you had crippling poison on you, your judgement would snare the enemy for 70% (slow of crippling poison) or if you were hamstrung (50%), your judgement would slow the target for 50%. This kind of dynamic would not only give ret paladins a snare, but it would also force the paladin to be smarter about WHEN to judge and when to freedom. It would also give our 4 piece pvp set bonus and judgement, (one of our oldest abilities) some of its value back rather than being a mana sync. Thoughts?? EDIT: I've posted this same topic on the damage dealing forums, go show your support and maybe get a blues attention. Brizzadin14
Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
Holy mana issues... >_< Okay, I've been tanking most of Cata so far, but I decided to try healing some things since, honestly, tanking is too much work for me to enjoy it much (and I've always liked healing more anyways) when I'm by myself. If guildies are on (particularly my pocket healer), I'll tank for them in guild group runs, no worries, but if I'm the only one on and I want to que to grab some JP or VP, I'd rather do it as heals. I wanna ask, am I doin' it wrong? After realizing how great Judgement is for my mana, I try to Judge every 10-20 seconds (as the healing situation allows), but I still find myself going OOM every boss fight in Heroics. Holy Light seems to not be healing for enough, so I can't really use it at all once the tank/party actually starts taking damage, so it's mostly DL, HS stacking HP, and LoD to do the bulk of the healing. It's even worse in AOE situations due to HR's longish CD, where I have to start hitting multiple people with DLs to keep them from going down (as opposed to just the tank and maybe being able to wedge a HL in between some of them.) Now, this said, I just upgraded my pants from the 325 crafted ones I had to bum off a BS friend because I was still in 318 green pants somehow (bad luck, I have, with RNG...) and I just replaced a 318 blue belt with this one when I hit exalted with Ramkahmen day before yesterday. So MAYBE those will make some big differences. But still, I was thinking Heroics were supposed to be doable with 333 level gear, and 347s making it somewhat easier. Yet here I am OOM at the end of every boss fight and GC saying that Holy Paladins are ending fights with TOO MUCH mana. what am I doing wrong? Do we have some kinda, "Hey, here's 40% free mana at no cost," button that I'm missing? Should I be reforging everything I can to Spirit? Any ideas? (Especially on fights like the Hall of Lights where there's just a mass of AOE damage. Even if players are quick to move out of the Alpha Beams, that Omega Beam eats my mana for breakfast.) Arthinas16
Jun 19, 2011
We're due for some damage buffs Bliz Survivability issues aside, easily stolen/dispelled Freedom/Wings aside as well, it's time we got something that at least resembles a damage buff. Sure refreshing Inquistion a LITTLE less often will help, but we're falling behind in PvE damage. If we don't have some kind of cooldowns to blow we're pretty much dead in the water. And I'm talking about PvE. In PvP our cooldowns don't mean crap cause they're stripped off easier than Paris Hilton's underwear. Even Art of War procs can be stolen/dispelled. Is it really too much to ask to make Wings immune to dispel? Sure let mages copy the buff if they have to, whatever, but don't let them take our only offensive chance at winning away from us. You can't call us utility/support if nothing, and I mean nothing we do can't be countered by every single class in the game. Name one thing a Ret can do that another class can't shut down somehow, honestly. You think Warriors would respond positively to throwdown being dispellable? Honestly, how bout give Warrs one more 5 second stun on a 45 second cooldown, that way we literally can't move at all, whatsoever. Can't we get a small damage buff? Something simple like Divine Purpose going to 25%? Or even 20%? Maybe do the same with Art of War? Something to give us more buttons to push, and to make us feel like we're actually playing the game, rather than just going through what's now become our 'rotation' hoping for a lucky proc? DK's have almost 50% chance to reset runes every time they use Runic Power on any dps ability, and the same concept applies to Obliterate proc'ing a free Howling Blast. That makes Frost DK's more predictable AND more fun. Can't Ret get the same treatment? If you're not willing to buff the damage on any of our attacks, can't we at least get a higher chance to proc extra stuff to use that we already have? Art of War and Divine Purpose both need this done, and NO I don't think it's too much to ask given how out of control Arcane and marksman Hunters have gotten. Call us support or utility all you want, but when everything we do in PvP is easily countered with a simple dispel of any type, stun we can no longer break, or fear we can't counter either..... then no, I don't think more damage, or at least more CHANCE to do damage is out of the question. If you want us to bring spot heals to raids you're contridicting yourself with the WoG nerf, and Hand of Sacrifice and Holy Radiance barely ever come in handy for us, nowhere near often enough to put the gap in dps between us and the other classes that you have lately. This whole 'hybrids should do less DPS' thing doesn't mean much when we don't have anything to warrant the lower dps. Why bring a Ret to a raid when he doesn't even have a snare? You could have a Frost DK sacrifice 2 measly talent points for chillclains and he brings 10% haste to boot. Replenishment and 3% damage is nice, but it's nothing other classes can't provide. Lay on Hands to use every other attempt? Big deal. It's time Ret got some more ammunition, otherwise you're just going to keep seeing these Ret is a JOKE even in 4.2 posts(which doesn't seem to bother you guys all that much, as long as it's not Mages that are upset). Mages can QQ a little and get changes reverted before they even make it to a PTR build, but the entire Ret community can't seem to get anything done to better the Paladin class. Not everyone enjoys rerolling mid expansion just to stay at the top of the game. Just try moving both Divine Purpose and Art of War to 20%, let's see how much it helps us, pretty please. Búzz0
Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
How to Make Ret Paladins Less Boring For about a year, my paladin was my only toon. Through ICC and Cataclysm, I've used him primarily to tank in raids and random dungeons. I would however occasionally queue as DPS, say to learn the mechanics of a new dungeon or to provide assistance for a guildmate who was learning how to tank. I still have Retribution as my offspec (after briefly flirting with disaster as a healer). After leveling a Frost Death Knight, a Fire Mage, and a Marksmanship Hunter, I can say with a high measure of confidence that Retribution Paladins are the slowest, and undoubtedly the most boring, DPS class I have. While they dish out enough damage to be viable, the rotation is less engaging than on any other toon. This post points out three fixable problems with recommended solutions. If Blizzard deems it worthwhile to keep DPS as a class for Paladins, then I hope they care enough to address some obvious rotation concerns. Please note that these recommendations are aimed towards PvE, but they could be incorporated into PvP in a way that would still allow for Paladins to deal the burst damage necessary for Arena. 1. Waiting. The hinge talent of the Ret rotation is undoubtedly Crusader Strike. Even specializing such that haste effects lower its cooldown does little to reduce the inevitable feeling that you should be doing something while you're waiting for Crusader Strike to come off cooldown. This could easily be remedied by unlinking the cooldowns of Crusader Strike and Divine Storm. These are different abilities that do not even provide the same benefits; they should not share a cooldown. Reduce the damage of Crusader Strike and/or Divine Storm, and allow Retribution Paladins to use both abilities instead of always opting for Crusader Strike. 2. Toolbox. The Retribution toolbox is a lot smaller than either other Paladin specialization, and undoubtedly smaller than nearly any other DPS class. Since implementing new talents this late into 4.x content is untenable, perhaps it would be better to make more use of what talents the Ret Paladin DOES have. Dissociating Divine Storm and Crusader Strike would definitely help; perhaps removing the cast time of Exorcism and allowing Retribution Paladins to mana dump with it would make the rotation more interactive and make a user feel like they were doing more. It would also allow them to contribute more to trash pulls, or at least feel like they were. 3. Guardians. The Retrobution Guardian has many notable problems, some of which the 4.2 patch is slated to address. But perhaps it would be best if the Guardian's power were reduced overall, and made to perform more like an Unholy Death Knight's permaghoul. It would be interesting to have a pet that benefited from something like exorcism stacks or holy power. This would also give the Retribution Paladin more options to meet more variables in encounters. Retribution Paladins are Bulldozers with the emergency brakes on: they may be heavy hitters, but they're also incredibly slow to use. Given Cataclysm's emphasis on adaptation to unique encounter mechanics, I'd wager a lot more people would roll Retribution if there were more options for how to use the class. Thanks for taking the time to read. I hope these suggestions at least give other players some food for thought, if nothing else. Vashington5
Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
Divine Storm Please take this into consideration Developers. Can I please have this back? The real version! Please? I'll trade yoouuuuu... Holy Wrath for it? That ability is useless and its the same thing kinda. Get rid of that and make Divine Storm not share a cool down with Crusader Strike, and buff the damage just a little bit, and make it cleave less people if you have to. I think it would make a lot of the Paladin community happy, and would give pvp Paladins something else to do besides just waiting for procs or CD's to come back up. Ret just feels lacking in fun right now. Its no where near as fun as it was in WOTLK... So ret didn't have a firm place in anything back then, at least is was fun. So to go over things... **IT CANNOT BE FUN AND SHARE A COOL DOWN WITH CRUSADER STRIKE** Divine Storm: 1171 Mana: 4.5 Second Cooldown: Hits a target for 190% Weapon damage and 2 additional Targets, loosing 30% damage for each additional target, and will grant 1 charge of Holy Power if it hits 4 or more targets. In addition, if used while Avenging Wrath is up, will hit unlimited targets within 8 yards for the full 190% Weapon Damage. It could even not be tied to Weapon Damage and be all Holy Damage like Ret paladins should. Just something like that? Kinda like Chain lighting. Just give us back Divine Storm, its a fun ability that is lost now, Its only usable in PVE and its still not even that great. Divine Storm was once an iconic ability of the Ret paladins, now its just an ability we use because its the "optimal route" for aoe. Skrillix35
Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011 Jun 19, 2011
Delete . Agincourt0
Jun 19, 2011