Jun 13, 2011 Jun 13, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011
Paladins and the "Bubble" I am wondering, and want to know what others think, if the fact that we have divine shield is why Blizzard has such a hard time balancing us out? Think about it. Take Ret first for example, as long as we have 3 healing spells (with cast times and mana costs) and a bubble to make us invincible (until dispelled), how can they possibly give a DPS spec a buff to damage? Same goes for protection I guess, honestly why would a tank (from a PvE perspective) need a spell that drops all aggro and makes themselves immune? I was wondering what the impact would be if Divine Shield was made into a Holy spec only talent? I think a healer having that spell would make more sense than a tank or DPS spec. Let's say bubble was made a Holy only talent, now what for Prot and Ret? Would it be easier to then give Ret more sustained DPS (which from reading the forum cries seems to be what people want, reliable, sustained, DPS, right?). I don't know how exactly that would be given to ret, but wouldn't getting rid of bubble open more doors for Ret having one or some (if not all) of the following: Sustained DPS A Slowing ability (I've seen that as a topic many times) Another way of enhancing survivability What about protection without bubbles, from when I've tanked as a paly I've noticed that having 3 holy power is really only used for the one and only DPS ability they have that uses holy power, unless WoG is off CD. Maybe give prot another holy power using ability instead. I am not sure what it would do, more damage, protection, healing? I'd like to know what others think if bubble was moved to Holy only, what would you want Ret and Prot to gain for losing this ability? Or am I just not right about this at all and bubble should just be as-is? I honestly just can't stand being in arena as ret and seeing LOH grayed out and using bubble as a debuff cleanser etc. Couldn't we get rid of it and have something else? I know a lot of people would finally stop using the "but you have bubble" excuse to every buff we suggest? Thoughts? Feel free to flame if this is a dumb idea, I can take it :) Kohdan18
Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011
Haste Mastery and Crit Illuminated Healing (Mastery) has been adjusted slightly so that if a paladin refreshes an existing copy of his or her own Illuminated Healing on a target, the new absorption amount will be added into the old absorption amount and the duration will be reset. The total absorption created can never exceed 1/3 of the casting paladin's health. thats now in the patch notes, also the crit has been adjusted so its like 200% more crit chance or something and alot of people are asking if mastery will be better than crit/haste, others say crit will be better than mastery/haste and others say haste is still better than mastery/crit im a haste is better than mastery and crit but i still think its int>spirit/haste>crit/mastery now heres my reason/proof as to why: in the PTR in all T11 gear un re-forged and un gemmed/enchanted my holy light and divine light cast for roughly 2.3 to 2.2 cast time now gemmed and enchanted correctly its about 2.1 this is unbuffed by the way. now if i re-forge into all haste its at 2.0 cast time and when buffed its about 1.9 to 1.8, this benefits me alot because now 100% of holy light on the beacon is transfered so i can throw out more holy light's and my divine lights cost alot more but come out quicker so i dont need to cast 2 i just cast 1 then a holy light and there back to normal and i regen spirit fine with the T11 gear. in full T12 gear unbuffed/gemmed/re-forged its about a 2.1 cast time gemmed and enchanted 2.0 to 1.9 depending and when all haste is re-forged its anywhere from 1.9 to 1.8 so buffed its roughly 1.8ish to 1.7ish now, again i said why this benefits me and you may say "why not just stack a bit of crit and stay at the same cast time as your T11 if it works for you with that cast time?" my answer is, because firelands is a harder raid, its new content and imagine heroic firelands, its going to need more stuff and you may say why not just go all out spirit/int? because in full T11 gear im at about 103k mana buffed.. yes i know its a bit low but in T11 gear im at about 120k unbuffed.. and spirit regens SO FAST so there isnt much need, also if i keep up my judgements and hit the boss every known again if i can i dont oom.. ever.. i mean sure every known again theres that point in time you screw up and are forced into a semi-oom but then i judge, pop DP and if your a Belf pop your racial and your set.. you may say "but DP takes away 50% of your healing" yes true, but if its glyphed you get alot more out of it and you can pop AW and GotAK and then its basically fine, and screw the cooldown time compared to DP because you shouldnt be in that situation more than once or twice where you go oom in a fight anyway anyone else with me? and if your against me could you tell me why please :)? thx. Onevia2
Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011
Holy Shield in 4.2 I'm going to apologize in advance. This will be a very long post, but I wanted to go over this, and cover all the bases, so that my suggestion has logical backing, while communicating information that may have been overlooked. There WILL be a TL;DR version at the bottom, of course. As many people are no doubt aware, Patch 4.2 will bring with it a change to Holy Shield for Protection Paladins. ... Simple math indicates that this is an overall nerf. Instead of 40% damage reduction with a 100% uptime, you have 50% damage reduction with a maximum 33.33% uptime. Look at it like this. Imagine you have a 100% block chance, and are facing an enemy that will deal 1000 damage every second to you. Under current conventions, the damage stream will be flat - 600 damage per hit. With the change, however, this alters the flow. For 10 seconds every 30 seconds, the damage will be 500 damage per hit. At all other times, it will be 700 damage per hit. Over short-term, this is a net reduction. However, at the 20 second mark, it is equivalent. Beyond that, it decreases, and at the 30 second mark - where the cooldown is available again - it is markedly worse. Over 30 seconds, a 4.1 Prot Paladin would receive 18000 damage. Over 30 seconds, a 4.2 Prot Paladin would receive 19000 damage. Okay, so it's a nerf. And nerfs happen all the time. It's a fact of life in this game. Well, the question then becomes "why?" Paladins and Warriors are two of the three shield-using classes in the game. The other class, Shaman, isn't a tank-capable class (or at least, isn't designed with that goal in mind), and so the natural inclination is to draw a parallel between Warriors and Paladins. Death Knights and Druids use other abilities to simulate the damage reduction granted by shields, in order to balance the classes. These abilities are difficult to draw parallels to, and so we'll take Death Knights and Druids off the table, and compare Warriors to Paladins. Protection Warriors and Protection Paladins both use mastery to increase their shield block chance. For Protection Paladins, upon learning Mastery, you are granted 18% shield block chance, and an additional 2.25% for each point of mastery you have. (More accurately, you are given 8 mastery to start with, which accounts for the 18% shield block chance, as 2.25x8 = 18) When Protection Warriors learn Mastery, they are granted 12% shield block chance, 12% critical block chance, and 1.5% chance of each for each point of mastery you have. (Again, they start with 8 mastery, 8 mastery = 12% chance.) Each shield-using class (including Shamans) is also given a base 5% chance to block. In addition to this, Protection Warriors have a 'baked in' 15% additional chance to block, from from the 'Sentinel' passive ability. The long and short of all this, is that at 20 Mastery (base 8 + 12 from gear), both classes will have a 50% chance to block attacks. I believe this is the point to which scaling was intended. Prior to reaching this, Warriors will have a greater chance to block than a Paladin in identical gear, and afterwards, a Paladin will have a greater chance to block than a Warrior in identical gear. Since the 50% mark seems to be the 'magic number', we'll work with that. It's at that point where gear benefits both classes to an equal amount. Prior to/subsequent to that point, scaling works a little differently. When comparing the two classes, it is important to identify and illustrate the differences in the respective mastery effects. Without the use of cooldowns (or gear, such as the 1% block value meta gem), a Protection Paladin in 4.1 - provided they are keeping Holy Shield up, which is done by using Shield of the Righteous or Inquisition (or, with appropriate talents, Word of Glory) - will block for 40% of incoming physical damage upon a successful block. This is a static value, and will only vary if the Paladin's rotation changes, at which point, it becomes 30%. For the purposes of this experiment, let us assume that the Protection Paladin's rotation is constant, and the uptime is 100%. In other words, assuming no other avoidance stats (which doesn't happen in a real setting, but for the purposes of simulation, we will use this), there's a 50% chance that an incoming physical attack will hit for 100% damage, and a 50% chance that an incoming physical attack will hit for 60% damage. Atrea47
Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011
My Thoughts on Aura Mastery First off, I want to begin by saying that playing a Holy Paladin is tons of fun and there's not much that I find issue with... except for Aura Mastery. In this rant (for lack of a better word) I'll be concentrating on its use in PvP: primarily Battlegrounds, but also its use in Arenas. Aura Mastery has its place in combat, but with a 6 second active time and a 2 minute cooldown, the window of opportunity is so small that it's too hard for most people to use it to their advantage. In PvE, Aura Mastery is a little more useful because one can coordinate with other holy paladins and theoretically get enough Aura Mastery spells to never be silenced or interrupted, but that's assuming one has enough holy paladins in their raid/party. In PvP, Aura Mastery is, at best, mildly irritating for the enemy. Even assuming one can cast Aura Mastery at the right time, the buff makes them immune for only 6 seconds; long enough to waste a rogue's garrote (no cooldown) or maybe a mage's Counterspell (24 second cooldown). With most classes in the game using silences and interrupts, it's more than likely that, by the time the buff wears off, another enemy is there and ready to lock down someone. Another issue with Aura Mastery and timing is the fact that it doesn't cancel out silence debuffs that were applied before it was cast. If it were possible to cancel out those effects by casting Aura Mastery, it would make the timing of Aura Mastery not as harsh and it wouldn't feel like a waste. To me, this seems like an obvious effect that Aura Mastery should have, hands down. So, my basic suggestions: * as stated, it seems obvious (to me) that Aura Mastery should clear silence effects that were applied before its casting. * raise the active time to make it more viable in longer battles, say 20 seconds and keep the current cooldown. This seems more reasonable since most people in PvP will last a lot longer than 20 seconds (and definitely a lot longer than 6) but it keeps us from being locked down as easily. * keep the 6 seconds and lower the cooldown to 1 minute. Since most PvP battles will last a lot longer than 1 minute, this seems more viable because it would grant us immunity for six seconds every 1 minute. Thank you in advance for reading through this. I'm open to reasonable and intelligent discussion on this topic, so please add your comments below and let me know what you think! :) Maiyr8
Jun 12, 2011 Jun 12, 2011
Is holy shield actually changing in 4.2? I've read the patch notes and I know what potential change is, but just three days ago on the "Ask the Devs" tanking this was posted. And I'll put in caps the part that makes me wonder. Paladins: Mastery is an attractive stat for paladins, but has some design problems. It scales very well, but due to the nature of our combat tables (and being able to “fill them up”), you can get “block capped,” which is a massive performance benefit. Worse, Protection mastery scales with itself, since there are no diminishing returns on block chance, and the amount of rating you need to block cap goes down as your dodge and parry improve, allowing you to put even more of your stats into dodge or parry. This sort of feedback loop is something we always try to stay away from, so we plan to change this in the future. WE TRIED SEVERAL ALTERNATIVES FOR 4.2 BUT WEREN'T HAPPY WITH THE RESULTS. Any change which made mastery weaker (such as subjecting block to diminishing returns or changing what it does) would have required mitigation compensation for paladins elsewhere (with all the design risks inherent in making such changes), as well as asking many players to extensively re-gem or re-forge. We’ll ask players to do that when the need is great, but we didn’t think this problem crossed that line. The major risks are that Protection paladins become too powerful or too weak or that gear with mastery will at some point be rejected once characters are over the cap. We don’t think any of those problems will manifest themselves in the 4.2 content. So blizz if you aren't happy with the results is there going to be a change? Also if you aren't happy with the results why would you make a change? Insertcoins0
Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011
Paladins Past and Present, reminisce with me Ages ago (BC), paladins were a !@*! class (Well.. still are atm it seems). They didn't heal that decently, they tanked rather well but still did !@*! DPS. The basic mechanics of gear were so over the place it wasn't funny. Truly horrible gear. At the time I was level 60, running around in full PvP gear (The epic gear, looked awesome) and a blade of misfortune. At 60 with that gear, running around a BG and killing anyone that got in my way was a thing of true ease; not one class/character could with stand me running at them and going nuts. With a healer or two near me it would be the sum of 10 people to kill us all. Hilarious !@*!, without a doubt was tanking Van in AV after giving the 'real' tanks a shot. 3 whipes was the limit and it's all I could stomach wasting time, quick /shout of "ALL HEALS ON ME", I'd normally get 3 or 4 healers on me to start and then after a while all of them. Couldn't really hold threat against a Ret pally with Righteous Fury on *happy face*. And esp the talent tree to back it up.. fun days.. At 70 it was much the same, worse gear mind you and I couldn't tank Van *sadface*. However, I did pull top 3 DPS in kara at the time with full PvP gear, the lawls I got from going in for a pug being called a "noob" and then saying to each of the idiots "Dudes, tell you what, I'll not do any damage for the first 15 seconds. Then I'll start". Back at BC, paladins still took skill. We were a !@*! class, we got rofl stomped by most other classes with ease and generally is sucked. Going against any class was a real challenge as a Paladin. You had to literally out think your opponent on the move to go next. From memory each class followed certain things that you HAD to do; Warlocks; trinket out of fears, silence, stun, don't let them cast, turn pet when possible, etc. You'd normally get kited and dot'd to death Priests; Disc - they'd out heal you, holy they'd simply life while they smited you and shadow.. well... mana burn is a #!%%@ Hunters; kite kite kite and more kite Rogues; Sapped.. can't see.. kidney shotted.. z0mg you did damage, hahaha you still lose Warriors; Arms; we're !%!#ed. Slice slice slice dead. But we did stand a pretty decent chance against a warrior Shamans; my god, you and your !%!#ing purge. LET ME KEEP A SEAL FFS. Got old after a while but they could be beatten. Paladins; came down to gear and skill. There use to be a paladin on Moon runner that could beat people with Rings and a Weapon - at the time it was the best PvP weapon available though heh. When to Hammer, repentance etc etc could really tell a good pally from a !@*! one. Mages; Ice, kite kite kite kite kite, OH !@*! ICE BLOCK, blink, kite.. Everyone remember Blinking out of stuns... *shivers*.. stupid !@*!. If they were fire, you got a nice easy kill. And arcane just ran around blasting you to bits.. but as I said, it was really for the challenge. Druids; you lucky bastards. Healing whilst doing DPS? Acting like a rogue then turning warrior? So hard to destroy this class but at the end of the day, with enough burst anything is possible. Long and the short of it, before patch... 3.2? I think it was, Paladins were hard to play, worse to use to defeat anything and even worse at pulling big numbers. Oh and they were the lolladin class (Anyone remember that?) Hellsoldier29
Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011
Tankadins Missing our Flair? I've been feeling this way for a long time. And I am wondering if anyone else feels similarly. Since BC (and even in small numbers in Vanilla) there have been paladin tanks. And the big paladin tank thing was always the self-healing and excellent block abilities. Vanilla through half of WotLK we also used a lot of reactive damage. So Cataclysm is announced and the class gets an overhaul. First thing to go is the Holy Shield Mechanic and all of that reactive damage. No longer do we get threat from blocking, and Retribution Aura is worthless. Okay, whatever. Not a big deal, it was broken in pvp anyway (though I do miss watching rogues kill themselves on my shield). Then we all realise we won't be getting any heals from Judgements. Whatever not a big deal, they are putting all that healing somewhere right? Word of Glory. Definately lived up to its name. And we used the crap out of it. Why wouldn't we? We have 3 talents that enhance it, and we rolled a paladin to be a tank that heals. So we are rocking along, and we notice we have some problems. It heals too much. Makes us too efficient to heal. We let blizzard know like a good class, at some points in time we were their favorite class up at HQ (Reckoning-Bombs). So what do they do? Slap a 20 second cooldown on the ability. So now we have, in a 3 minute fight, a potential of 9 self heals/over shields. Okay...well...that's no good. So the class, that has for 6 years been the "tank that can heal itself" --- Blood DKs aren't tanks that "can heal themselves", they are tanks that MUST heal themselves --- can fill their health pool maybe twice in a fight. Whatever, we spec out of Eternal Glory. At least we can still block better than those Warriors, right? Right? Nope. 4.2 turns our constant +10% mitigation into a 33% uptime 20% mitigation. I want to point out here that this is NOT about anything being a nerf or making us bad at tanking. I am sure we will continue to tank just fine and roughly on par with the other classes. So 33% uptime 20% Mitigation IF you happen to block one of the 3 attacks that will hit you while the effect is active. Which we all know effectively eliminates any block advantage. "But wait Repute, you still get more block for mastery than a Warrior." That's True! We Do! But they also get cool stuff from parry, critical block (which no longer has the 40% block balancing argument), incidental self-healing, better mobility and better threat mechanics. So now we come to the point I am at. Where I am sitting here staring at my character screen, and all I can think is: "When did I become a Warrior with a Wings cooldown?" Repute1
Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011
SURVIVABILITY the real worry as a pally DUHH! Ok so blizzard says we spend too much time using WOG. FINE! We do. But did they ever wonder why? If so, did they say anything about it? Sorry but I think the search feature sucks when it comes to finding posts. Sorry but I have to be honest. I've never been able to find anything easily with it. (no advanced search features FTW!). Anyways. What I think We use WoG so much because: - We dont have enough up time on our targets. We dont have any kind of root/snare mechanic - Has been stated over and over by us - We're very very very susceptible to CC's. We can trinket out of it once every 2 mins or buble every 5 mins. to which right after either we can get cc'd again. - our buffs are OVER RATED by other classes. HoF - HoP - HoS you name it. Any buff we give (except auras - OH WOW) is dispellable and depending on what our partner is the HoP may make it so they can't even attack. Which usually partners do not appreciate. - Our burst CDs are on 2 minute CDs. so we get 20 out of every 120 seconds to down people... Yeah I don't think this is realistic due to reasons previously given --- Dispell - how much cc we get--- Up-time on target and uhh SURVIVABILITY. Not only that but a lot of the classes have some kind of defensive CD they can use to avoid getting hit so hard or even at all by our main attacks. - Our healing sucks as it is. I know I know we can roll holy if we wanna heal... I guess maybe I'm not very good with my spec. Because when I kill somebody its either because THEY messed up or I end up yelling GET SOME RESILIENCE!!! When I say they messed up it usually means they didn't have their CD's or didn't CC me or if in arenas they didnt "train" me. All n All. I think if you ever see a ret in 4.1 arenas it will be because they have a good friend who likes playing a healer and likes playing with their friend. Unfortunately for us there are many classes/specs who can do it better then us and are not as much of a liability as we are. So we're not as likely to be taken vs the other classes. I'd say 8 out of 10 times people will take the other classes over us. May be worse in 4.1. Stryper2
Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011
my 2 copper on ret Ive been having a lot of thoughts on ret lately and i thought that i should just put them out somwhere. So here i go. In General- Ret seems to bland combat wise to me right now, specifically because of how holy power is being used. Holy power right now is basically the same as rogue combo points. Crusaders strike=sinister strike, templars verdict=eviserate, inquisition=slice and dice. Combat wise, were the same as rogues but with higher armor and with mana instead of energy. Mana definatly isnt built for combo points, thats why druids use energy too. Personally i hate the fact that ret doesnt have a unique combat mechanic anymore. Holy Power- Its a good idea, just implemented wrong. It works well for holy, alright for prot, but turns ret into rogues. If blizard changed holy power to do something elnse or just gave ret diferent things its supposed to use holy power on, it would make paladins unique again. Talents- Most of the ret talants are good but some just seem out of place. Crusade- Eventhough most of this talent is absolutly nessasary, the end seems out of place to me. Increases holy lights healing after killing something? Its usefull but quite unnessasary for 5-mans. The end part would work better as a holy talent. Guardians favor- Seriously, this is a tanking talent. While hand of freedom is helpful, you dont use it that often and dont need a duration boost. should be a prot talent. Selfless healer- Why is this even here? Did blizard acidentily think ret was holy for a second? We will absolutly never heal in dungeons, which this is meant for, and holy paladins will never be able to get it. If bliz wants it to be a crucial part of our mechanic, give it a massive buff. Make healing others worth our while. Mabee they want us to heal to be able to dps better. It would be unique and quite weird. Id like to see it. Repentance- Shouldnt this be class wide? Acts of sacrifice- This is definatly a prot talent. It probably has some valid use in pvp but it should realy be in prot. Reduced mana cost is always good but we never use hands and it just turns cleanse into an extra hand of freedom. In Conclusion- Ret is too bland because its so close to what rogues do for dps. Bliz should change how holy power works for ret, buff the damage boost from selfless healer, and turn repentance into a class wide ability so that we can get something more usefull for a spec only ability. P.S.-Sory for any spelling mistakes. Sargentbob4
Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011 Jun 11, 2011