Paladin

Sep 29, 2011 Enchanting Questions Hey guys, my guild is gonna take me through my first raid after I get my Zandalary gear and I was wondering what enchants should I get for my Tier 11 pieces. Thanks for all the help. =) EDIT: I forgot to say it's for my paladin tank. Obviously, he is protection. The enchantments I'm talking about is for my Paladin tank.Nitedeath4 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 I need your help! i just bought an apparatus....and i reforge for crit to be more bursty to apply better pressure, but right now i cant seem to get it to 5 stacks fast enough....ive tried it with reforging mastery and it just wont stack...no crits.... did i buy this for nothing?Vallec2 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 Give rets ANY slow! We need it! Please!Oldestguy0 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 Ret paladin and PVP Survivability...(non-WOG) It's funny how in terms of PVP and Arena Blizzard says we're not dps'ing as much as we should be but the whole premise of PVP is about surviving the encounter, not some race to meet some damage marker. That said we focus our 'lack of' survivability based on the WOG nerf but we neglect we have a ton of other healing spells at our disposal. Yes WOG was a crutch we depended on a lot but how about bringing back a ret's ability to use the other healing spells without oom after too casts or constantly getting interrupted. Here are some things I propose... Our one single targeted stun isn't enough CC and on too long of a CD to heal ourselves with hard cast spells consistently. So I suggest a few things. 1) Give us a area effect CC...much like a druids ability to knock back...give us something to either drive mobs/pc's away for a short duration. This way it won't be able to be used offensively. It could be a blind or flagellation (from BRD boss). This will give the small window we need to cast a healing spell. 2) Change the proc of crusader. Make crusader proc from getting a crit from something or another. I'm not sure of the coefficients to make sure it will be balanced but not something that procs as much as Art of War. Make is offensive related so it will give us the incentive to DPS to heal. 3) Lower the spell time for holy light for retribution via talents. Thanks for listening...Phelan7 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 can we get a new class feedback page? If a blue could put up another class feedback page for paladins since the one up there is full I think a lot of people would appreciate it. Thanks.Serovin0 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 More glyphs please Blizz! Mainly posted from a holy standpoint, if blizz make the change that is listed on the PTR notes to glyph of LoD I see little point in keeping it. However swapping in LoH glyph when the use of the spell is going to be once per fight seems underpowered. What glyphs would you like to see changed/introduced? I would personally love to have a range increase on rebuke as I find in allot of Zandoms ppl dont like to interupt abilities like chain lightning or fireball >:( Nayoe0 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 Little rant.. low lvl dungeons i know they are pretty much faceroll but you still expect people to play properly.. i just did an sfk with a holy pally wearing dps/prot gear.. i had more mana than him. note i zoned in at 2nd boss after the last tank obviously bailed... finish pulling trash before 2nd boss and healer is obviously not ready for boss pull but the rogue just walks up and starts attacking him :S i back off as not to get in combat and rogue dies... ok hmmm so then he gets a res and we kill boss. he drops dps ring and healer outrolls me for it :S hmmm again.. so i leave. i get instant queue so i figure i dont have to put up with that kind of stuff apart from that pally tanking is ok, have only ever tanked as prot warr and plan to duel spec holy at 30 :DMaggiecheers0 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 did they mix up t13 and season 11?? :L t13 looks quite similar to the pvp sets of cata so far. and season 11 gear is just too amazing to be pvp gear... http://www.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2011/09/i6ksh.jpg i sure hope so...Braydrel7 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 Why the lies on Dev Watercooler? I read the Dev Watercooler post a few weeks ago, about how they would not make major class changes in between patches because it annoyed players. At the time I was glad that the developers were sharing some of their thought process. However, now it turns out that in 4.3 the one big spell that makes us unique has been destroyed and turned into a crappy version of Prayer of Healing. If I wanted a disc priest I would have rolled a priest. Paladins were different to other healers in that we can position ourselves to get the most out of our healing: * Melee the boss to gain mana * Aim Light of Dawn * Move around to heal people with Holy Radiance The thing I like the most about paladin healing is being able to use movement as a part of my skill, not just fast button-pushing or clicking. What's the point of wearing plate if you are just going to stand wherever the whole fight and use ranged casts just like every other healer? A secondary problem with the HR change is that it is no longer usable as a panic button (DF+HR would recover from disasters). So it is certainly a big nerf for PVE in terms of playability. Lusignan1 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 29, 2011 @HR/JoI change Protip guys: Blizzard devs get paid to design video games. (NOWAI, rite?) This means that they are aware that the minor PvE buffs holy pallies are slated to get in 4.3 are definitive PvP nerfs. You guys can all sit here QQing about loss of active mana regen and lack of spirit on PvP gear effectively nerfing your longevity in PvP encounters, but they already know that. You can all QQ about how the new cast time on HR, and the loss of pally sprint mobility buff that accompanies it makes it not only virtually useless in PvP, but also a hugely unnecessary mana sink in most PvP situations, but they already know that. The reason they already know these things is because they planned it to be that way. HPallies are getting slightly PvE buffed and solidly PvP nerfed because Blizzard wants it that way, and if the PTR shows adequate PvE buffing and PvP nerfing, these changes will go live, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. Enjoy your day.Lolatile6 Sep 29, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Introduction Hai everyone, I'm Ben and I'm making a paladin! <--- is him. Hopefully I have fun leveling one to 85 and PvP and PvE Any tips and tricks for an up and coming Retribution Paladin? Decked out in full heirlooms back chest shoulders helm btw! Please no QQ about how Ret Paladins suck at 85. JW is playing a ret fun? Thanks everyone!Holanar3 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Pally Holy Radiance Blizz is trying to make holy radiance a 3 second cast when it drains most of our mana any way for ret and prot and nerfing pallies in 4.3 is the wrong way to go when mages are way to OVER POWERED pallies should not lose or gain anything they should just stay the same b4 blizz messes the class up like mages they messed it up now its just 2 moves and a stun and u dead really we need to just get rid of a little mage dmg and keep everything the same dont need to mess wit the classes let the people QQ blizz dont listen to them they just want that class nerfed because they suck serverly at their own class.....Saberz5 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Just leave it alone already! I know, some people are applauding the holy radiance changes in PTR and some hate it it. My personal opinion is leave it alone! I am comfortable with how my pally plays now and enjoy it. I am soo friggin tired of every patch we get jerked around. It seems I have to alter my play style or relearn my abilities every patch. Sometimes changes are good but constant changes are not. I love the way Holy radiance works now and I like where Holy pallies are at the moment just leave them be. At some point there has to be a realization that one of the resons people are leaving in droves are because you keep jacking with there characters. People want change yes but not for the most partin the way they play there character but in how the game is played around them. So just a lone persons opinion and vote not that it matters but, Keep your dirty hands off my pally!Demoses7 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Cyclone = Bubble fail? Ok, so I just got out of Arena this evening, where somehow I was repeatedly unable to bubble out of a Boomkin opponent's Cyclone and just floated there watching my teammates die. I was literally spamming on both the hotbar button AND the assigned hotkey...no difference. And of course, *AFTER* Cyclone's full duration, my teammate is already dead and somehow I can cast bubble again at that very instant (which makes absolutely no difference at that point). Given that Cyclone is one of the most spammable CC's in the game, this is very, very disturbing. This late in the season, folks are starting to hit really hard, and if I miss an escape and have to take a full-duration CC, there's just no recovery. Please tell me this is not a stealth nerf (or another Druid buff, as if they needed one). If Cyclone has just become a free pass to kill off Holy Paladin teammates, "most epic raid encounter ever" or not, I think I'll pass on the rest of Cataclysm, thanks but no thanks.Zaranaya19 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Grats blizzard, hpallys now less interesting ... At some point you really have to realize what is happening to subs, stop catering to bads and allow classes to actually do work to get things done. The thrill of hardmode progression and not knowing if you could spare a gcd for a judgement then deciding whether you needed it and in general just having something you need to keep track of will be gone ggJacobmullins22 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 What class are you rerolling too? Lets face it pallies ! Blizzard just hates us ! What class are you going to reroll too ? Or just quit !Ezkieo35 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Are you serious?? "Holy Radiance now has a 3.0-second cast time, no cooldown, and requires a player target. That target is imbued with Holy Radiance, which heals them and all group members within 10 yards instantly, and continues to heal them by a smaller amount every 1 second for 3 seconds. Seal of Insight, when Judged, no longer returns 15% base mana to the paladin. Judging Seal of Insight still cause"s damage, and melee attacks will still restore 4% of base mana." Are you kidding me blizz, you take one of our good escape abilities and turn it to !@#$, tyvm. Now we are gona constantly run oom, great. Now add that on top of mana burn, TYVM.Divinekush14 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 An idea for the modification of Hands. As a bit of a preface here, this is not a suggestion I see being implemented any time soon, I simply thought it was an interesting idea and figured it might be worth sharing. Many people make the case that a paladin's support abilities are our "special something," our unique power that the paladin class provides that no one else does in quite the same way. While I don't contest the value of our Hand spells in their capacity to affect a battle, they always struck me as rather lackluster from a gameplay perspective. They're useful, but not exciting (or at least not to me). So I thought about it, and came up with an idea that in all likelyhood was subconsciously spawned from my exposure to GW2's Guardian profession: ground effect buffs. The idea is based on changes to two existing abilities. The first is to Consecration. In this idea it would be changed from its current state as an AoE DoT that affects the location where the player was when it was cast to something more akin to D&D or Flamestrike, where the area is selected by the paladin and dropped at range. Also, instead (or perhaps in addition) to its current effects it gains a new one based on one's Hand spells. That leads me to the second change: Hand spells cannot be cast on other players. Obviously that rather defeats the point of the Hands if left as just that, but the idea I have is that if you cast Consecration with a Hand spell the buff is removed from you and the ground is Consecrated with its power. So as an example, if an ally runs into an area of ground consecrated with Freedom any movement impairing effects on them will be removed and they cannot receive more as long as they are within the confines of the circle, but will no longer be effected by it should they leave. In this way consecrate becomes legitimately useful as more than just a mob net for tanks and our Hands go from flat castable buffs to modifications to the field of battle itself. I realize this idea is quite possibly terrible, but like I said above I figured it would be interesting to get the community's take on things.Volkrin0 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Calling all PVP Ret Paladins If the new T13 2-piece set bonus leaves you flabbergasted jump in this thread, let Blizzard know what you think of this crap. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3229086083 Don't let them treat us pvp'ers like trash, don't let them think they can be lazy about fixing your spec.Ackbar15 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 best race for tanking? Im really down for aesthetics as well, but i heard its dwarf. Just wanted a second opinion, i dont care to be ret, but ill def. have a healing offset.Kelviel5 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 T13 Color variants I realize that people feel different ways about the set in general, but the recolors of the silver set that was shown are just flat out bad. I personally like the set, but can't stand what I'm seeing for the recolors. http://oi51.tinypic.com/nd0bxx.jpg http://oi53.tinypic.com/zkhp3q.jpg Somebody posted a thread about it over on mmo-c. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/987131-Paladin-Tier-13-recolors?p=13422898#post13422898 I think that Blizzard really missed out on the possibility of making a truly awesome white set, a gold set, or even a black set trimmed in gold. Any thoughts?Dynati5 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 weapon advice i'm currently using Reforged Trollbane but i've been thinking about replacing it with Vicious Gladiator's Bonegrinder. Assuming everything is properly enchanted and reforged, which would be better? p.s. - was the bonegrinder size reduction intentional? does anyone know if they've given any indication towards fixing it? thanksRenth2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 How long did it take you to figure out... that you can just pop radiance and get all 8 of your wounded infantry for the MF daily up without having to stop and give the meds to each one...? Took me about 2 weeks of daily grinding before i figured this trick out... >.<Amiste11 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Newbie learning to tank - Build/spec help Beyond reading the stickies here and elsewhere, I am trying to research best things for a Prot Pally to focus on/learn. But - every site I go to that discusses spec builds links to wowhead. For some unknown reason I cannot get wowhead to load properly - mostly a blank white page with page load errors. Is there any place I can go to see talent builds that doesn't require wowhead to work?!?!Torquemadan2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Herioc Ragnaros Hey guys, Just a quick question. I was wondering how you prot pallys out there are gearing for Heroic rag. Right now I am in my full stam set with the resist trinket. Trying to figure out if I should be rolling with my block set or stick with the Stam set. Any info from people who have downed heroic Rag Pre/Post nerf would be greatly appreciated Thanks guys :DHèmera1 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Prot 2pc Tier 13 and GbtL I'm just sitting in class bored and my thoughts wandered over to how our Tier 13 2pc bonus is going to play with GbtL. As it is, I find myself using ShoR less and less because I don't need the threat as much. I use it liberally on fights where tank DPS is important like Alys (obviously), but the rest of the time I find myself prioritizing WoG over ShoR when I can get an overhealing bubble out of it, especially when I'm at full Vengeance. (I realize that 60k ShoRs aren't something to sneeze at, but I digress.) What I want you guys' opinions on is how you think the 2pc bonus will affect GbtL. Do you think that the Judgement bubbles will be powerful enough on their own, possibly powerful enough to stop worrying about GbtL completely? Do you think it'll be worth it to "double bubble", so to speak? Basically I'm just craving something to talk about.Cosmology1 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Request for Holy Radiance mana cost 4.3 We've all seen the patch notes by now, and if you havn't, hop over to mmochampion.com and read em. They are interesting, and whether or not you have an opinion on them, one thing glares me in the face. Blizzard wants us to have a healing rotation for aoe, which I embrace with open arms. They want us to generate holy power through Holy Radiance, which should be noted can be cast on multiple people at the same time, and then LoD at full. This is fine on paper, until you look at the fact that 3x HR's will cost us nearly 30k in our mana reserves. This isn't a petition thread or an outrage thread, just a simple suggestion to the developers to reduce the mana cost slightly to make this method of healing a sustainable method of aoe healing for next patch. Thoughts? Feelings? Complaints?Zomo10 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Fear the Holy Radiance You know the HR change is a kick in the teabag to Holy Pally PvPers. Make the HR generate fear in enemy players. Tenacius6 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 All I want is one simple change for CS Just make Crusader Strike generate holy power on use rather than on hit. This is such an easy fix and theres no reason not to make it. It helps for dps on bosses that we must face from the front, like Domo and Rag. And then it helps us not be comepletely useless in pvp when facing a feral druid or getting unlucky rng against other classes. I have been screwed so many times against ferals (mostly) and other classes because a vitally important Crusader Strike was parried or dodged and then I have generated zero holy power for 8 seconds. I do not see how this is unbalanced, if it is please argue with me.Stendar2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Light of Dawn Should Alter Holy Radiance Specing into this solely PVE spell would change Holy Radiance into its proposed new form, which is also solely useful for PVE holy paladins, leaving its old form for PVP, rets and prots. Perfect solution.Kelvara4 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Death Knight Tank - Self Healing Buff How is this fair? Death Strike now refunds health even if the attack misses or is parried/dodged. First we lose Holy Power stacks when we get dodged or parried. Then we get stealth nerfed making our Hammer of Righteous not hit if the primary target dodges or parries. Then we get a 20 second cool-down on Word of Glory, effectively killing the Eternal Glory talent and making Word of Glory hardly used as a tank. Something really needs to be addressed in the self healing abilities/absorption discrepancies amongst tanks, especially when paladins are in the bottom of the pile.Soliar3 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 4.3 patch notes http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2475-Patch-4.3-on-PTR so looks likes some big changes for holy especially Holy Radiance, nothing about ret yet, except its looking like all the AP bonuses are getting buffed up to 20%Funkymonk50 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Fury of Angerforge for ret. Sorry if this is a noob question, but I just got this trinket on my Paladin, and I don't know if I should sell it or use it. I have Licence to Stay and the one from Coren. Thank you.Mindstorm6 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Leave the old Holy Radiance for prot and ret Add it to one of the usually taken talents. At least for prot. Having only one of the three Cata spells be useful to us (yes, I use inquisition for added AoE damage, extremely minor as it is), and it being a simple damage reduction skill, is just boring as hell.Kelvara7 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Additional changes We felt like paladins were unhappy with the way lay on hands worked, so weve decided to give it a 3 second cast time and provide a fast HoT on the intended target instead of an instant heal It was also widely believed that using judegment every 8 seconds was too hard for new paladins(ps, seals used to last 10 seconds), so we have decided to make them obsolete for holy paladins. spam holy light and pray your raid can carry you Hammerzilla1 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Space charger Thats right SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE charger ...Zergetsu3 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Seal of Insight? Seal of Insight, when Judged, no longer returns 15% base mana to the paladin. Judging Seal of Insight still causes damage, and melee attacks will still restore 4% of base mana. they !@#$in over us... makign us run to melee cleaves to get our mana back ! great work blizzard for ruining the pally classEzkieo14 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 ZOMG HPALLY OOM "In addition to providing haste, the effect from Judgements of the Pure now increases mana regeneration from Spirit by 10/20/30% for 60 seconds." Please read the whole post instead of crying and creating threads about it. Thats all folks Lemmer2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Feedback for Blizzard 1. for me, i do PvE 2. I do HM raiding and progression raiding 3. My biggest quality of life issue is the mana cost. of course you are making HR a cast, and MUUUUUUCH better, but it still will not be viable at the same mana cost. 4. What makes playing my class so much fun is how much work and effort ive put into my character. What i like about the class itself is that if you know how to play it right, it is a very strong, important raid requirement. 5. What makes my class least fun is honestly, nothing... i love my class lol 6. I have spent hours upon hours making my rotation and fine tuning it and i feel that it is very sound and it works well for me. 7. TOP PRIORITY on my wishlist for my class is that i soo badly love this patch except the 1 tiny detail, which would be the cost of HR. i think yes, there is 30% increased regen, and yes that is a biig help. but, i know that it wont go well cause 3x10k is 30k mana, almost 25% of most of our mana pools. this just wont be viable in an actual life or death scenario in a raid. I am not asking for anything like "cut the cost in half!!" im just saying maybe reduce it by 25%, even 15% jsut a bit to make it atleast usable in a raid. because we already have the 50% reduced healing after we use DP, so it just doesnt add up well for us in the future. 8. The spell i use the least is FoL of course :P, it is now a pointless crappy heal. A suggestion for you would be to maybe make a proc for it that would, say, when casted on an injured target, has a chance to heal the most injured nearby friendly target for 75% of the amount healed (because its already not much healing) but to counter act with that making Beacon of Light too OP, you could just make it not transfer to the beacon. .... Thats just my opinion of course, in my mind being- that yall want us holy paladins to use flash of light. i assumed thats why we still have it. Thank you very much for reading/considering my feedback. and i appreciate any feedback from anybody else on if you think my ideas are good or not :)Datkuson0 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Holy Paladin 4.3 possible PvP problems If you have not seen the 4.3 changes yet, go read them, though if you PvP at all on a holy paladin, brace yourself for more bad news. I can see that PvE holy paladins are somewhat happy with the Holy Radiance change, but this is a huge no, enormous nerf to pvp hpallys. One sprint down from two, and Holy Radiance given a 3 second cast time, which means in PvP that it does not belong on your action bar. A unique spell was basically taken from us and replaced with Prayer of Healing except it does less healing and the mana cost is much more. Not sure what the rest of you think of these changes, but I am not looking forward to the Holy Radiance change going live. Cataclysm has just been one nerf to healers after another. Oh and Resto Shamans got a healing buff, so that's nice to hear, they really needed that. (Do not bring up Windshear nerf, everyone saw that coming)Ineos1 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Ret T13 2 piece thanks for giving us a set bonus with a 50% chance to do nothingKibbit31 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 crusade talent i'm not sure where to put this but whenever im in a battleground my crusade talent never procs, ive never seen it proc and i've respeced twice trying to fix it, whats wrong?Chocpally2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 HELP! Tanking Questions. What should I do to improve my gear? Should I just be farming reg instances for JP and just buy tanking pieces or what? I'm getting enchants very soon by a friend, so ignore the non-enchanted items. Thanks!Gilric5 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Retribution and Valor Points Hello all so, I was wondering what do you buy as Retribution first with valor points? I was thinking of getting the Chest Piece first for T12 and then getting legs/gloves if I don't get them from BH then moving to the accessories. Or is there a different way to go about your points. My paladin isn't showing up on my character choose panel so using this level one alt till I figure it out sorry that you can't see his gear. It's Bellyramos of Bronzebeard if you wanted to look me up and go from there.Imapaly2 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Sacred Shield I know blizz won't listen to this but it would be really nice to give paladins back Sacred Shield instead of it being a talent in the Ret Tree. Since paladins are the worst healers in arena instead of our master absorbing damage be better if we had more spell power with master for our heals what do you all think that play a holy paladinHodewey3 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 28, 2011 Consecration and Retribution spec. Consecration is useless for ret. pallys really in pve and pvp. It costs too much mana, does too little damage, and has too long of a cool down. From a pvp standpoint Ret. should get something similar to death knight's desecration. Consecrate isn't that big, but if it slowed opponents in pvp ret would have a useful tool for staying on targets. maybe for pve have it stack censure on mobs while they stand in it? idk thoughts?....Xeroval3 Sep 28, 2011
Sep 27, 2011 Relentless Transmogrification I am looking towards using the relentless gladiatior's shoulders, gloves, and chestpiece designs once 4.3 hits. I am, however, also keen on pairing those with a matching robe instead of legguards. Also, I was wondering if you guys have come across a good 2h sword model, 1h sword model, and a shield model for this look I'm going for. I also need a good pair of boots btw. Would appreciate any help on this, thanks!Atreus4 Sep 27, 2011
Sep 27, 2011 how is my gear? any tips? I just hit lvl 85 last week and since then, I've been farming lot of dungeons and heroics for some loots and points. Yesterday, I've had thought that I was ready for ZA/ZG... so I que'd with my friends and then the ZA instance went up. Everything went fine from the beginning to the end. But.... the trash / bosses in ZA hit me really hard. So I'm just wondering, was it because of my gear? Do I need more mastery? Hmm, would those mastery trinkets (the 312 mastery rating one) be a good boost? Any other tips would be appericated!... I really look forward to being a better tank...Inaudax5 Sep 27, 2011
Sep 27, 2011 Ret UI Hooray a thread that isnt about theorycrafting or whining about t13 set bonuses! Well my screen is very small 13.5"-14.5" and my screen is somewhat crowded with raid frames, recount, clcret, etc. Is there any addons that would let me move things around or a way to do that in game or a different UI such as Tuk UI that stays very close to the original blizzard skinningKagrithh2 Sep 27, 2011
Sep 27, 2011 Am i ready to tank firelands? Hey guys just wondering if i am ready. I could use some tips (gems, reforge, etc)Gaver3 Sep 27, 2011