May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011
Paladins Need to be Fixed My main is a Paladin and ive played him for a long time. I wasnt upset with the changes to ret paladins because for pve they are better at dps, But i Feel Blizzard forgot Paladins love to PVP. Before the last patch holy pallys were op, rets horrible, prot decent. Now with the new patch holy pallys are ok. Prot and Ret paladins are Terrible (For Pvp Im talking). Holy pallys now since they cant get the holypally from getting hit but only 8 seconds now just get stun locked up and in that 8 seconds they are done with. Prot pallys can hit hard but are like a truck with no wheels. They cant get close enough to anyone thats not a melee. They get Rooted, slowed by multiple spells (hunters,shamens,priests ect.). Ret paladins only have avenging wrath going for them and thats a 2 min cd. Before rets couldnt remove a impairing effect and be a sitting target like a the prot paladin aka a truck with no wheels, But ret paladins take so much dmg from casters that you can drop them like nothing. I play both ret and prot. i get hit for 20k being prot by mages or any casters (Full wraithful, resil doesnt do much). I have read why blizzard made all the changes to paladins to make them Harder to play. I think its because theres so many bad people out there who get rocked by a paladin and they QQ. Even as bad as they are now they are still going to be nerfed because bad people can just pst in forums or tickets to try to get something done because they fail hard, But come on any class is OP if you learn to play it <Right>. I dont know if this sounds nerd raging or psting my info. I hope blizzard can see what im trying to say and have paladins looked into. Yes i know we are not 85 yet but from videos i have seen its more a joke when we get to 85. Thank you for reading it. Rugaba33
May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011
Filler and Inq Change Thoughts Recently I've been feeling like I'm doing a whole lot of stuff, but I'm not really getting anything DONE. For example, for every thirty seconds or so, a good 9-13.5 (haste dependant) seconds is spent ramping enough holy power to replenish inquisition. Now, sometimes this doesn't matter as much, procs for 'free holy power' are fun. Of course, I'm also doing damage while building that holy power. On the flipside, I can't help but feel like Crusader Strike isn't really a direct weapon anymore? It's like, it's only there to build HP which will be used on Templars Verdict. Wouldn't be so bad if Templars Verdict didn't feel kind of bad on it's own (it's not really, it just doesn't seem great for a skill that is, basically, a finisher). I got to thinking about it, what I'd like to see different. This is what I came up with. Change Inquisition to an AoE related buff. The short duration would make sense that we'd have to tightly wrap it into any AoE skills we use. De-couple DS and CS in such a way that they share a semi cooldown. So, using DS will cause CS to go into a sort of half-cooldown, can't be used for X seconds (but not the full cooldown). This, I think, would prevent them from just being spammed one after the other, but would also allow some freedom in AoE situations. Add in a new move "Vindicate" for example. This could apply a debuff on the target increasing holy damage by X% on that target and doing Y% of weapon damage. Perhaps make it stack, like 6% stacking five times to 30%. I think with these changes the paladin (retribution) class would feel more exciting, but also, I think, be complex and challenging in a way still. You'd build up this debuff be beating the target up with Vindicate, then you'd work vindicate into your rotation along with TV and CS to keep it up. Vindicate should be single-target only damage, and Inq should be multi-target damage only. This could include things like splash damage from seals, divine storm, holy wrath, consecration. What do you guys think? Manthila0
May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011
Holy Mastery Tweak This is a small change in it functionality but please hear me out. I had been thinking about how terrible our mastery was in comparison to many others and the buffs that shaman received to theirs and my focus drifted to how they were almost exact opposites. Then it hit me. Since shaman get better as players lost health, why not deal with an issue I see paladins have: overhealing. Now I am not saying paladins overheal a lot I am just saying paladins dont have anything to compare to hots bubbles and ES. What I propose is that the threshold for mastery be increased for any over healing. This way paladins could change up their game plan. It can possibly increase the number of HL thrown out in the raid, use it as blanket damage reduction with LoD, and increase PvP utility as we get shut down a lot and would allow us to increase our chances to survive those periods where a split second more could have saved us. It would not increase our survivability below full health but would give us preemptive opportunities so we could top people off and get a return for it like hots and ES and Priest bubble. It would increase the value of our other stats also: haste increasing the number spells thrown out and crit increasing the value of those shields, while mastery's value goes up because you would want those bigger shields. Any thoughts and suggestions? I will ask though if you respond with numbers please show your reasoning, whether it is theory crafting or connecting dots. Deliciously2
May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011
PvP Holy idea. (All Paladins welcome) Hello my fellow Paladins who decided to play the gimp healer class( in PvP at least), It seems that whenever I am healing my teammates, more specifically when I need to play catch up - i.e: I'm put in a CC that could not have been avoided and now they are hurt pretty bad. That there is a lack of on demand heals to bring someone from 30k up, sure I could throw out my 8k holy shock and hope it crits for a follow up 30k-40k heal but in that time my death knight could get globalled. Or I can hope I have 3 holy power for a WoG. So I propose a new holy ability , but not like any others to prevent further homogenization. Here's the concept: You take holy shock + one of our casting spells and make it an instant cast, the drawback to such a strong ability is that the spell let's say flash of light is now put on CD for 6 seconds like holy shock, and holy shock is also on cd for using this. The mana cost would be holy shock and the spell combined, plus some more for the use of this ability. (Constructive criticism please, no bashing of any sort would be appreciated.) Also, I would like to see Sacred Shield back for holy survivability peels or no peels, holy doesn't have quite enough survivability with all the current comps running with a priest or warrior to dispell bubble. That's all I really would like to see. This thread is for anything you think Paladins could use, new ideas are welcome. Regards, OP (P.S.: If my name bothers you, I am sorry, I hate it as well.) Overpowèred23
May 21, 2011
wall of text: Fixing Holy PVP, Awesomely. Our weakness in pvp seems to lie in our susceptibility to crowd control and interrupts, as well as our mobility being restricted by a need to chain hard casts or "turret". Paladin also lacks the ability to take the full advantage of line of sight, as other healers do, because we have no lasting mechanic (hot or shield, our mastery shield is not viable for this) to keep our partners going should we need to duck behind the pole to avoid that ever looming cc chain. This seems like a lot to fix, and it would be, if you were trying to get paladin back to playing more like other healers. Alternative? Embrace the differences from other healers, and take it in a new direction. A friend and I were discussing recent paladin buffs on ptr, which I'm happy to see but in my opinion don't really address the most pressing issues for the class, and had a neat idea; Deep Holy Talent: 'Your crusader strike to grants you 'BUFF', reducing the duration of crowd control effects used on you by X%.' OR 'Your crusader strike causes 'DEBUFF', reducing the duration of crowd control effects cast by the target by X%'. This could of course be tied in to an existing talent with pve viability, due to it's obvious pvp-only nature. This talent would transform paladin into the melee healer, it would break the standard healer archetype of "hide behind pole, heal, repeat." breaking up the homogenization between the classes(that you love hearing about), and make paladin interesting and fun to play again(opinion). "Melee healer?.. what is this? I don't even...?" Hear me out; Paladin has some extremely strong mechanics that we don't get to take advantage of in pvp because of positioning demands; such as rebuke, radiance, and the effects of melee attacks with various seals, this would also expand the usefulness of hammer of justice. Looking at these spells (and their range) you would think they were designed with the intent that paladins were in the middle of the action, which currently just isn't viable in practice. "so you can just ignore positioning?" Incorrect. We'd have to pay as much, if not more, attention to positioning, as well as having more options in pressing decisions regarding things like who to dispel first and who gets hand of freedom. Our positioning NEEDS would just change, becoming more harmonious with our token mechanics (the stuff that makes us paladins). "so you want to be immune to cc?" Incorrect. We wouldn't be immune to cc, we'd just have our own measure against it (which we desperately need). You have to bait shear and stomp grounding/tremor to cc a shaman, and he's still got es and riptide IF you land your cc. You have to catch a druid who is extremely mobile, and he's still got hots IF you land your cc. If this talent existed, you'd have to keep the paladin from getting the buff (or avoid the debuff) to land a (full) cc. Seems reasonable. "This idea is stupid/brilliant" Cool, post why, I'd love to hear your opinions. Waste6
May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011
... --- Azzigoth1
May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 21, 2011 May 20, 2011
Holy, the REAL problem (and my solution) So... I'm a long time reader, first time poster. My main is a DK, but since Vanilla and BC I played a paladin (currently it's my main alt that I play). From what I can tell currently, from talking to some other paladins, and reading different forums, top tier paladins have almost forgotten what Holy Light is, and they hardly use it. Now I think for a minute (I also have other healing classes at 85 - druid and shaman, no priest sadly): What happens when I do this? -Well... I can last awhile but not very long... So how are these other people doing it? What happens when I try it on my alts? -Well, the druid is totally screwed when casting Healing touch (I generally NEVER cast this in raids)... the Shaman does stand a better chance, but I've come to find out if i weave riptide in between 2 healing surges I'm generally golden (also I noticed - next patch healing surge is being reduced 20%, sigh). Now I look at my skills as a paladin, (which I was using of course): Arcane torrent (6%) Divine plea (18%) Judgment SoI (2k net mana gain every ~8+ seconds Replenishment (1% every 10 seconds) Mana tide (probably ~20k every 3 minutes currently? Possibly lower..) Normal Combat regen For this I'm going to ignore the priest hymm and innervate. MOST paladins would see this as all they have in their arsenal. Now I'm going to break it down a bit. Let's do it in mana gained every 8 seconds and all these are used on CD (simply because Judgment CD is 8 seconds). Let's also assume that we are at 110k mana fully buffed / flasked. That's roughly full 358 gear: Arcane Torrent: 440 mana/8 seconds Divine Plea: 1320 mana/8 seconds Judgment: ~2342 mana/8 seconds (net gain, including the cost to judge) Replenishment: 880 mana/8 seconds Mana Tide: ~800 mana/8 seconds (this number is a little off, I don't want to log in game and find the "exact" value Combat Regen: 4960 mana/8 seconds (3100/5 seconds, this assumes might buff, tsunami card and spirit on every piece of gear excluding trinkets and main hand) Now add them up: 440 + 1320 + 2342 + 880 + 800 + 4960 = 10742 mana every 8 seconds Example one: (Holy Light) Now in these 8 seconds, I generally cast holy shock once, holy light twice, divine light once, and judge once. That's 13583 mana I'm using every 8 seconds (1873 + 2342x2 + 7026). Let's assume 13500-10500, 3k net loss, that's a 5 minute fight. Even this can be a stressful rotation. Let's assume, to make it easier to comprehend they each heal for: Holy Shock: .7 Holy Light: .9 Divine Light: 2.5 In these 8 seconds, I'm healing 2.5+1.8+.7 = or 5.0 on the OT, with beacon on MT according to blizzard. With a net loss of 3k mana every 8 seconds. Example 2: (No Holy Light) But no, there are rare paladins who are spending more mana casting divine light more. How is this? This is the secret you've all been waiting for... Meleeing with SoI. Back to what I said above, you gain ~10.5k mana/8 seconds. If you melee 3 times out of those 8 seconds, SoI is going to proc on average 2 of those swings, giving 937 x 2 mana back. Thats almost an additional 2k! Bringing us at 12.5k mana/8 seconds Normally we don't have time to do this, most paladins I know don't even think about it! So lets change the "rotation" to cast holy shock once, divine light twice, judge once, melee 3-4 times. That's 15925 mana we are now using every 8 seconds, with a gain of 12.5k, 16000-12500 = 3.5k net mana loss every 8 seconds, and with our "simple healing" numbers above, were healing 5.7 on the OT, with beacon on MT. Conclusion: Right now, as I see it. Both methods are very similar in the amount of healing done vs mana cost. The difference is that blizzard is not a fan of the "don't use your efficient heal" method. My solution to the problem is SoI, remove the mana gained on melee swings, rather than increase the cost of our heals. Again when looking at this post, I did not include priest mana hymm or innervate in my calculations. Illyría7
May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011 May 20, 2011