Proving grounds.

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Silver and Gold are way above the skill level of LFR. If you can do bronze, you can do LFR and "heroic" dungeons. Silver is about the same skill level as normal raids, whereas Gold is like challenge modes or heroic raids.

I am speaking of the healer proving grounds...I'm not sure how the tank and DPS ones are because I haven't tried them. I have heard they are much easier. If you can get Gold healer, then you are pretty much ready for heroic progression raiding.


I haven't tried the gold dps proving ground, but I did bronze and silver and they were very easy.

I'm a non raider (and a below average player). If I can one-shot these, anyone will, believe me. :)
09/27/2013 06:48 AMPosted by Judgernaught
Don't worry, this is a truly hypothetical discussion, most people realize that it will never be implemented


I think I read a tweet from GC saying proving grounds might eventually replace item level as the barrier to entry for LFR, I can't seem to find it however so there is a good chance I am mistaken.


There go another 4 million subs. stupid thing is just gonna be another gearscore used as a lazy way to classify people.
Silver is FAR too much to expect for LFR. Silver, at least for tank and healer, is normal progression raiding. If you can do Gold you're ready to push heroic raids, not LFR.


Joking?

I don't DPS in raids, I heal. I got my healing Gold without a problem, but I'm in no way capable of heroic raid healing. I nailed Silver DPS while twiddling my thumbs (seriously ... wave would be dead and I'd want the next wave to come out right away, instead, I'd have to watch the countdown), but you wouldn't want to see me try to Feral out in a raid.

You pretty much have to be an expert with your class to get gold. And not only be an expert at your class, you have to have the right gear, the right reforges, the right gems, use the right abilities at the right, etc.


Really, you must be joking. I didn't reforge or regem to get Gold. I'm lazy like that. I'm not going to reforge just for some solo play. And I didn't use any abilities -- just healed as if I were in a 5m. I didn't respec to gain an interrupt, or anything like that.
09/27/2013 06:53 AMPosted by Fairadey
LFR was meant to open up content to anyone and everyone who couldn't or wouldn't participate in structured raiding and had a earned a high enough ilevel to be mathematically viable in the raid.
And this wouldn't change any of it. If you're geared enough to do LFR you're geared enough to get silver in PG (atleast the higher LFRs, gating the preToT ones like this would be retarded). This is not much of a gate considering it takes less than an hour including flying time from shrine.
09/27/2013 06:46 AMPosted by Nonamekiller
Silver is FAR too much to expect for LFR. Silver, at least for tank and healer, is normal progression raiding. If you can do Gold you're ready to push heroic raids, not LFR.


Really? I haven't done LFR in a while.... and silver is a JOKE (at least for the DPS one for ME). I personally had no trouble from bronze to gold, the only time I died was when I alt tabbed after killing a wave and a banshee snuck in and blew up.

Everyone who I have talked to also had no problem at bronze and silver. Gold... things got tricky for them though.


The DPS proving grounds are a lot easier than the tank/healer ones. All you have to do is pew pew hard enough and not stand in the fire.

Healer proving grounds are like...taking those terrible people that do 3k DPS in the dungeon finder and trying to do a raid with them, while they stand in the fire. Oh, and you have to do a decent amount of DPS yourself too or you won't do it.

Tank...well the tank proving grounds is not like tanking at all. There is no help except for an NPC that might try to heal you maybe sometimes. You have to DPS everything down yourself. Oh, and half the time taunt doesn't work on the mobs in there for some reason. You know those terrible dungeon or LFR groups you get in where it's just you (the tank) and a healer, and people decide to either stand there or /sammich or whatever it is they do when they aren't doing what they're supposed to do? And somehow you and the healer manage to get the boss down by yourselves? That's what it's like. Only the healer is bad.

I think Blizzard has proven that they cannot "simulate" group content with NPC's. The game can't handle it. Proving grounds is just another gimmick that looks like it was thrown together in 5 minutes. Succeding isn't really even about skill, it's about finding ways to cheese the mechanics (assuming your class can do that).
Silver and Gold are way above the skill level of LFR. If you can do bronze, you can do LFR and "heroic" dungeons. Silver is about the same skill level as normal raids, whereas Gold is like challenge modes or heroic raids.

I am speaking of the healer proving grounds...I'm not sure how the tank and DPS ones are because I haven't tried them. I have heard they are much easier. If you can get Gold healer, then you are pretty much ready for heroic progression raiding.


I haven't tried the gold dps proving ground, but I did bronze and silver and they were very easy.

I'm a non raider (and a below average player). If I can one-shot these, anyone will, believe me. :)


You are a lock... my lock pwns everything just like my blood DK (hunter isn't bad either). Play a real class other than a faceroll class and people might believe you.
09/27/2013 06:57 AMPosted by Féris
LFR was meant to open up content to anyone and everyone who couldn't or wouldn't participate in structured raiding and had a earned a high enough ilevel to be mathematically viable in the raid.
And this wouldn't change any of it. If you're geared enough to do LFR you're geared enough to get silver in PG (atleast the higher LFRs, gating the preToT ones like this would be retarded). This is not much of a gate considering it takes less than an hour including flying time from shrine.


You know that gear scales down to 463 on PG?

Gearing for PG would be optimized by having any gear (463 +) with most sockets (and the better ones).

The SoO trinkets are worse than ToT for healers (since the ToT are usually mana regen trinkets, SoO have some healing boost ones)
You know that gear scales down to 463 on PG?

I'm aware and that was my point. I said it'd be silly to require silver for lower LFRs because you might be cutting it close with the ilvl there, and second with alternatives to those LFRs no one would do them if we required silver PG to get it.
[quote="101017011943"]
Succeding isn't really even about skill, it's about finding ways to cheese the mechanics (assuming your class can do that).


I tend to agree with this. I am a mediocre tank, at best. I was able to get Silver, but it was because I learned where the mobs were going to spawn, and what they were going to do. Not because I was a good tank.

I gimmicked the system.

On healer, I also have silver. I'm banging my head against the wall trying to get past wave 6/7, because I just can't keep up with the stupid group. If we had 1 combat rez available (like in a real group), I would be able to clear it (I think).
You know that gear scales down to 463 on PG?

I'm aware and that was my point. I said it'd be silly to require silver for lower LFRs because you might be cutting it close with the ilvl there, and second with alternatives to those LFRs no one would do them if we required silver PG to get it.


Oh, I get it. You have a good point.

The DPS proving grounds are a lot easier than the tank/healer ones. All you have to do is pew pew hard enough and not stand in the fire.

Healer proving grounds are like...taking those terrible people that do 3k DPS in the dungeon finder and trying to do a raid with them, while they stand in the fire. Oh, and you have to do a decent amount of DPS yourself too or you won't do it.

Tank...well the tank proving grounds is not like tanking at all. There is no help except for an NPC that might try to heal you maybe sometimes. You have to DPS everything down yourself. Oh, and half the time taunt doesn't work on the mobs in there for some reason. You know those terrible dungeon or LFR groups you get in where it's just you (the tank) and a healer, and people decide to either stand there or /sammich or whatever it is they do when they aren't doing what they're supposed to do? And somehow you and the healer manage to get the boss down by yourselves? That's what it's like. Only the healer is bad.


I'd disagree with all of this, actually.

The healing proving grounds AI is actually much, much better than a typical group. The tank holds threat on everything (granted it's given to him automatically but hey) and uses his active mitigation rather than being stupid. He also uses shield wall intelligently. The mage and rogue interrupt on cooldown. They also deal solid DPS considering the level scaling of the place, and make an effort to actually get out of fire. Since they fixed the problem where the AI helpers stopped using their AoE, waves don't pile up anymore. It is now extremely easy as long as you understand mana efficiency. Your own DPS is largely irrelevant.

As for the tanking one, it's teaching you to pick up adds and survive. The healer gives you a consistent 35k HPS, that is your lifeline. She also happens to kill everything for you. It doesn't teach you tanking basics, but it forces you to learn how to manage cooldowns and active mitigation properly.

...And the DPS one...easy depends on the class. Silver with anything is a joke, but to gold it on a class with poor target switching capabilities or more bursty specs (like elemental) is harder than doing it on a hunter or a DK etc.

I personally found the healing proving grounds to be the easiest of the three, even though I've been a DPS and have raided for a large amount of my WoW career. Though I was trying the DPS one on an ele shaman, and I found the lava burst cooldown to be overly restrictive when it came to hard switching on the banshee waves. I'll be trying with my hunter some time.

As for the tank one, I have a prot warrior and I get wrecked on wave 10. But I've never been great at tanking, so.


You know that gear scales down to 463 on PG?

Gearing for PG would be optimized by having any gear (463 +) with most sockets (and the better ones).

The SoO trinkets are worse than ToT for healers (since the ToT are usually mana regen trinkets, SoO have some healing boost ones)


Either way, there are still DPS requirements in LFR for some fights (especially the ones with tight enrages), just like any other raid. If your group isn't doing the DPS needed to down the boss, you're not going to down the boss. You are left with kicking low DPS, or just continuing to try to no avail. Having a requirement like Proving Grounds better ensures you don't run into this problem.

Although, like I said before and others before me, you're going to need to fix the AFK problem before you can do so.


I agree with everything. My post was intended to respond to another poster (and it appears that I misunderstood him/her as well).
Oh, I get it. You have a good point.

That being said I think the whole idea is silly (even if I backed it to get a reply out of that person who thinks it's gating LFR). Requiring it will change nothing. PG is not something you need to be skilled at, or a master of your class to get. I know a Rogue who is in full PvP gear and frankly, based on his "kill" video for it, isn't that good who got gold. But lets pretend that you did need skills to get silver. Even then it won't change anything. People who put in the bear minimum will still put in the bare minimum and not learn fights and/or under perform on them. It's an interesting what if, but it's a silly idea because it achieves nothing.

You are left with kicking low DPS, or just continuing to try to no avail. Having a requirement like Proving Grounds better ensures you don't run into this problem.
Pizzacat please, getting PG silver will not ensure your LFR doesn't hit enrage due to low DPS. You can do suboptimal rotations and still get gold. It means nothing, and will solve nothing.
My main point is...Proving Grounds is not fun, at all. Because it's not like "proving yourself" in a good group. I like organized group content (as opposed to LFR) because you get to work with others in overcoming an obstacle that noone could overcome on their own. It takes not just skill, but teamwork. Yes, there are wipes. Yes people do dumb things sometimes. But still, it's a group effort. A lot of the time these people are your friends (or at least guildmates if not friends)...most of the guilds I've been in in this game were guilds where we all knew each other before WOW.

Proving grounds doesn't do that at all. It just gives you all of the qualities of BAD groups like those you find in the dungeon finder a lot. That's why it's frustrating. You feel like the people (NPC's in this case but still) that are supposed to be helping you are in fact hindering you and making your job 10x harder than it should be.

THAT is why it's frustrating. You know how people feel after they end up in a bad group where people are AFK, stand in the fire, do low DPS, get a "tank" that's an arms warrior, and generally have a miserable experience? THAT is what Proving Grounds is. It takes all of the bad experiences and frustration you get from bad groups in LFR or the dungeon finder, and lets you experience all that frustration without even having to join a group. That's why it's not fun.
I feel Proving grounds is a wonderful tool in learning how to play your class. This is why I propose people should get at least Silver before being able to enter SoO LFR. Any LFR player who knows how to play can easily get this, or even gold. and it would show they can follow mechanics while still using their class properly. and tbh it takes like 10-15 minutes to do bronze and silver if you one shot them.

(I don't think gold would be a good idea, because a lot of my guild's healers are pretty good, however the "Party members" you get are as dumb as bricks.)


Warrior tank Gold + Endless is harder than anything you'll have to do in-game as a warrior tank, but silver would be all right. As has already been pointed out though, being able to do silver puts you above the skill level of LFR, which is really more for beginning raiders or people who just want to see the content and don't care about doing it properly.

Silver would be a good requirement for people wanting to do normal raids, gold + endless etc. would be for heroics... but it's not really feasible to expect that Blizzard would require you to do proving grounds to be able to raid in any capacity.

That being said, the proving grounds aren't really that good in terms of teaching you how to react in a raid environment for tanks. I'd even go so far as to say it's a terrible tool for teaching a person how to tank better. It's more a matter of "Let's strip away every possible other way for you to survive and just manage your cooldowns when the healer pays absolutely no attention to you," as if your healer is AFK and you continue pulling anyway. Not a very smart mechanic.
The issue isn't proving grounds. The issue is that people don't bother to learn how to play their class. Look, I've been playing like 2 months, but I hooked up with a good group of folks that showed me the ropes. They told me which websites to read and gave a few tips on setting up a decent UI / addons.

You don't need to be a seasoned veteran of this game to be good at it. You just need to try. People in LFR don't try. Put something like a proving grounds requirement and they won't try to overcome the challenge. They'll just stamp their feet, pout, and leave the game for something that doesn't ask more of them.
THAT is why it's frustrating. You know how people feel after they end up in a bad group where people are AFK, stand in the fire, do low DPS, get a "tank" that's an arms warrior, and generally have a miserable experience? THAT is what Proving Grounds is.


What? The dps interrupt, the tanks don't lose aggro, they do 60k dps on 463 gear. The tank use defensive cds. The tanks survives long enough, even the dps don't die instantly.

HOW this is a "herp derp" group?

How this is a group that don't kill the same add on Sylvannas (end of time)?

Or a group that not switch to the orbs on Shado-Pan Monastery? Or don't press the button while at full rage/violence (forgot the bar name).

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