Flex Magic Number

General Discussion
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says the guy posting from a lvl 10 alt with no proof of progression.......nice trolling!
I have no progression. I suck, I am really bad and still I find Flex very easy.
says the guy posting from a lvl 10 alt with no proof of progression.......nice trolling!
I have no progression. I suck, I am really bad and still I find Flex very easy.

the mechanics are the same as 10 man normal just not as beefy!
Then normal is easy to. I just need more gear, I am being rejected for most flex groups because 525 ilvl is too low.

I wouldn't say flex have harder mechanics than lfr just because you need to click on the ball to make your test on Norushen, or need to press one single button to pass Mark of Anguish etc.
10/16/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Banknorris
says the guy posting from a lvl 10 alt with no proof of progression.......nice trolling!
I have no progression. I suck, I am really bad and still I find Flex very easy.

the mechanics are the same as 10 man normal just not as beefy!
Then normal is easy to. I just need more gear, I am being rejected for most flex groups because 525 ilvl is too low.


And there we have it your a scrub.........525 is to low...you can be a casual player and spend time on the new island getting 535 gear plus weeks of chances at loot from lfr SoO and flex SoO and maybe if you tried to get gear a bit harder you would of had weeks of normal SoO loot....so thats just you homey dont call something easy you have not cleared!
the mechanics are the same as 10 man normal just not as beefy!
Then normal is easy to. I just need more gear, I am being rejected for most flex groups because 525 ilvl is too low.

I wouldn't say flex have harder mechanics than lfr just because you need to click on the ball to make your test on Norushen, or need to press one single button to pass Mark of Anguish etc. [/quote]

O ya and its more to it after you get past the first wing like its nothing like lfr....but then again your 525 ilvl so you wouldnt know
Thanks for some excellent feedback so far. Boss mechanics inevitably involve some breakpoints (alas, there's no way for Malkorok to create precisely 3.7 Implosions), and they do need to scale in some form, or abilities only targeting maybe 2 players out of a 25-player Flex raid would make some of those mechanics feel completely trivial and detract from the intended experience and tuning. In general, we try to err on the side of rounding down, and making sure that the ratios are never worse for any group size than they would be for a normal 10- or 25-player raid. Norushen orbs are a great example of a place where that logic doesn't quite work, though, since you actually want more orbs, and not fewer. That's something we can adjust.

Personally we have found 11 to be just about the hardest number. The difference in scaling between 10 to 11 is about 11mill HP. Now for a boss like the Iron Juggernaut, that’s fine. You pew pew the boss the whole fight. 11 mill over 5-6 mins is do-able. But, for a fight like Galakras where the boss is a burn at the end. That 11 mill is pretty tuff to make. Especially being flex so the extra members are not exceptional.

TL:DR: the boss HP Scaling is a bit over tuned for 1-2 extra players. (on some fights)


A bit of clarification here: Boss health and damage scaling are both completely linear and proportional to group size, but scale up more slowly than raid size does. So, all else being equal, if you add players who are roughly on par with the average gear/skill of your current group, you'll have a slightly easier time as a result.

Thok, for example, has 355 million health with a 10-player Flexible raid. If you add an 11th player, his health will go up to 390 million. I.e., you've increased your raid's damage output by somewhere between 14 and 20% depending on how many healers you were running, but the boss's health only went up by 10%. Adding that 11th player will also make Thok melee for about 3% more damage, which will barely be noticeable.
Thanks for some excellent feedback so far. Boss mechanics inevitably involve some breakpoints (alas, there's no way for Malkorok to create precisely 3.7 Implosions), and they do need to scale in some form, or abilities only targeting maybe 2 players out of a 25-player Flex raid would make some of those mechanics feel completely trivial and detract from the intended experience and tuning. In general, we try to err on the side of rounding down, and making sure that the ratios are never worse for any group size than they would be for a normal 10- or 25-player raid. Norushen orbs are a great example of a place where that logic doesn't quite work, though, since you actually want more orbs, and not fewer. That's something we can adjust.

Personally we have found 11 to be just about the hardest number. The difference in scaling between 10 to 11 is about 11mill HP. Now for a boss like the Iron Juggernaut, that’s fine. You pew pew the boss the whole fight. 11 mill over 5-6 mins is do-able. But, for a fight like Galakras where the boss is a burn at the end. That 11 mill is pretty tuff to make. Especially being flex so the extra members are not exceptional.

TL:DR: the boss HP Scaling is a bit over tuned for 1-2 extra players. (on some fights)


A bit of clarification here: Boss health and damage scaling are both completely linear and proportional to group size, but scale up more slowly than raid size does. So, all else being equal, if you add players who are roughly on par with the average gear/skill of your current group, you'll have a slightly easier time as a result.

Thok, for example, has 867 million health with a 10-player Flexible raid. If you add an 11th player, his health will go up to 953 million. I.e., you've increased your raid's damage output by somewhere between 14 and 20% depending on how many healers you were running, but the boss's health only went up by 10%. Adding that 11th player will also make Thok melee for about 4% more damage, which will barely be noticeable.


Linear scaling doesn't work that great on a fight with one-shot mechanics. The more people you have on a boss with one-shot mechanics, the more likely people will die early resulting in the rest of the raid needing to pick up the slack of all that extra health.

The result is that it is often better to take fewer people to those fights than more, since the chance of someone screwing up is reduced.

That said, I am enjoying flex very much and I think the fights are tuned generally pretty well. The fact that Thok was a hard fight to learn for 25 people on flex is part of the reason our kill was satisfying.
10/16/2013 09:57 AMPosted by Yõda
spend time on the new island getting 535 gear
boring. I prefer to wait for another flex group. I didn't say i can't do it, just said most groups wont accept me. But i just need one group per week.
Just wondering as I can't seem to find any reference, is there a magic number to which flex would be the 'easiest' based on the number in your raid. Also does the loot scale at certain thresholds which could influence this?

Thanks in advance!


This is exactly how Twinkies got ruined. They were a fast, easy, great tasting and fun treat. Then people had to analyze what was in them and give chemical names for all the bad stuff and just. ruin. the. fun.
I don't think it's a problem at all that the people organizing pug flex runs have minimum gear requirements and a 'desired' number for the raid. If someone is going to the effort of putting a pug together it is completely up to them to set the rules. If you don't fit they're requirements, then you need to keep looking, they have no obligation to make exceptions. They may be losing out on an exceptional player who is a little below their threshold, but that is the risk they take.

The reality is that if someone running a higher level of raiding is wanting to pug Flex for gear or on an alt, they don't really want to have to endure wiping repeatedly on fights they have on farm on a higher level. Therefore, people organizing pugs get to set their entry requirements. That's not elitist or being an !@#, it's just someone trying to get a group that allows them to enjoy their game time in their own way.

If your guild is doing it and sitting people because of some magic number, that is a different story.
I've heard from many players that 10-man flex is almost like normal mode, and 25-man flex is almost like LFR. For guilds still using flex as progression, that is a problem.


Thok isn't even close to LFR on 25m. You simply can't down it on flex unless everyone knows the mechanics, when to pop CDs and when move at the right time to the right place. The more people you have, the more people need to learn the mechanics that will one-shot themselves or wipe the raid.


Linear scaling doesn't work that great on a fight with one-shot mechanics. The more people you have on a boss with one-shot mechanics, the more likely people will die early resulting in the rest of the raid needing to pick up the slack of all that extra health.

The result is that it is often better to take fewer people to those fights than more, since the chance of someone screwing up is reduced.

That said, I am enjoying flex very much and I think the fights are tuned generally pretty well. The fact that Thok was a hard fight to learn for 25 people on flex is part of the reason our kill was satisfying.


Could you cite a particular fight with one-shot mechanics?
Could you cite a particular fight with one-shot mechanics?
Second boss, inferno strike?
he more people you have on a boss with one-shot mechanics, the more likely people will die early resulting in the rest of the raid needing to pick up the slack of all that extra health.
On the other hand, on a smaller group (like 10) if one person dies you have relatively a bigger problem.
I'd like to add my 2 cents here. My guild has been using flex as a means of learning the fights and gearing everyone up since we were a bit behind when 5.4 hit. I can say without a doubt that 10-man flex is by far the hardest mode. There was a HUGE difference in the Shaman encounter, especially when it came to the Foul Geyser/Foul Slime mechanic. We wiped so much on that fight with 10 people, and as soon as we tried with 11 or 12 people, it was incredibly easy (and no, the extra people we brought were NOT beating our normal 5 dps). We brought 11 people last night and breezed through the first 8 bosses with only 1 wipe on Nazgrim.

I honestly think it has something to do with the HP scaling on the adds, not the bosses. When you have 7 dps on the slimes in the Shaman fight, regardless of a small HP increase, you'll probably be dealing more relative damage overall than you would with 5 dps.

I'd also like to mention that it sucks that flex appears to be not-so 10-man friendly, when we don't always have the resources to bring more players in. If you're coming out of ToT progression and getting ready for SoO normal, the ideal spot you should be in is flex. I like to keep our same 10-man group in flex that we use for normal so we all learn the fights together and apply those mechanics in normal mode. Having to bring 12 players to make things "easier" shows me its not tuned for 10 players properly.

I've heard from many players that 10-man flex is almost like normal mode, and 25-man flex is almost like LFR. For guilds still using flex as progression, that is a problem.


What you run into there is that 10 people = 5 DPS + 2 tanks (who average to 2 DPS depending on vengeance). So 7 DPS total (assuming healers do none).

Add an 8th DPS (11th person), and you increase your DPS output by 14%, but don't change the mechanics or the Damage input sizably. So the return for investment is just higher. (14% Damage output vs 4% more incoming Damage)

On some fights this is a great tradeoff. On some... not so much, since mechanically it will change things in a worse manner.


Linear scaling doesn't work that great on a fight with one-shot mechanics. The more people you have on a boss with one-shot mechanics, the more likely people will die early resulting in the rest of the raid needing to pick up the slack of all that extra health.

The result is that it is often better to take fewer people to those fights than more, since the chance of someone screwing up is reduced.

That said, I am enjoying flex very much and I think the fights are tuned generally pretty well. The fact that Thok was a hard fight to learn for 25 people on flex is part of the reason our kill was satisfying.


Could you cite a particular fight with one-shot mechanics?


Malkorok, and Garrosh both have one shot mechanics.

Malk is movement based, and compounded by not being able to see anyones "real" health.

Garrosh actually has a couple. As the adds HP increases, the engineers become "trickier." Add in the directional he does during his "mini-phases" and you just end up with a lot of "confusion."

Thok also has a one shot ability, via being in his way during fixate. Since he can chain fixate (I got 3 in a row one time), this can create a situation where you can't avoid death.
A bit of clarification here: Boss health and damage scaling are both completely linear and proportional to group size, but scale up more slowly than raid size does. So, all else being equal, if you add players who are roughly on par with the average gear/skill of your current group, you'll have a slightly easier time as a result.


That matches with my experience. My 25-man Flex group ROFLstomps, while most of these 10, 11, 12, 13 man pugs I get in oQueue can struggle mightily at times.
Oh, but there is a magic number. For us, it is 15... as our mumble server has 15 spots. This has nothing to do with game mechanics though.
In my experience, flex is tuned pretty well no matter the number you bring. Been in groups anywhere from 10 to 18 so far, and never really had any issues at all in terms of mechanics giving us a problem due to bringing an extra player. Certainly, some mechanics have given us problems, but they are the same mechanics that gave my normal 10 man group problems, thus leading me to believe it is probably just learning the mechanics, nothing to do with Flex group size.

All in all though, I'm loving flex. Just a great feature for cross realm grouping, and I feel like it's something I can do, or not, each week as my time allows. Well done overall Blizz!
10/16/2013 10:01 AMPosted by Watcher
Thok, for example, has 867 million health with a 10-player Flexible raid. If you add an 11th player, his health will go up to 953 million.


Wait, what? He has like 440 million on 10 normal.
10/16/2013 11:56 AMPosted by Balkoth
Thok, for example, has 867 million health with a 10-player Flexible raid. If you add an 11th player, his health will go up to 953 million.


Wait, what? He has like 440 million on 10 normal.

Whoops, sorry about that. I was looking at the LFR numbers. He has 355 million with 10-player Flex, and 390 million with 11 players. Same general point holds, but I goofed on the exact values.

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