Poor me, the Sad Prot Pally

Paladin
Post Limit:
I actually thought it was a good idea. more stacks of BoG.
It doesn't give you more stacks of BoG though. Whether you use SotR at 3 or 5 holy power doesn't change the fact that you're still using it just as many times:

You build to 3hp and immediately use SotR, then you build 3 more hp and use SotR again.
I build to 5hp and use SotR, then I build 3 more hp (since I had 2 left still) and use SotR again.

Either way you use SotR every 3hp, the only difference is you delay the first one slightly so that you have extra holy power for use in emergencies. This also makes it easier to make sure you have a SotR ready for a big boss ability. The same goes for DP procs, you still use just as many SotR's so you still get just as many procs.
Here's the thing and you People can pretty much think what you want about the binding of Crusader Strike and Shield of the Righteous together in one macro.

But my current CD on Crusader Strike is 3.67 seconds. The debuff offered by Shield of the Righteous is 3 seconds. By tieing them both together. I can maintain Continuous upkeep of my SoTR debuff. with only a .67 second gap between. Now that does ignore the stacking of Holy Power. But by tieing them both together I not only get one GCD and a continuous control on the Debuff because Crusader Strike is in my Main Combat rotation. But While Divine Purpose is activated. I can maintain a Continuous Debuff and Generate holy Power and Deal DMG for up 15 seconds. So, I mean think about that. If you are using SotR stand alone all by itself. You have to watch the Debuffs and when you use SotR you don't generate HolyPower and if you are only using SoTR with no other abilities tied to it. You are essentially wasting a GCD that doesn't have to be Waisted.

With this abilities no being connected to a GCD. I see no reason to use it stand alone. I can't see a reason. If you want to hold off a few seconds and wait to make sure that the Debuffs is up while a boss is laying down a massive attack. You just don't use Crusader strike for a few seconds or a few miliseconds. But if you waiting 30 seconds to use SotR. That is a lot of down time in a fight where that debuff could easily be up and you could easily generate holy power.

Now, That is my opinion and this is where I think world of warcraft has gone wrong over the years. In the Original Version of wow. There were a number of viable strategy that were considered acceptable to be used in game. The Current version of Wow Seems to have everything set up in a manner that makes in difficult to go with alternative strategy and you seem to get a number of people who sit there and dictate and declare there is only one way to play and MY way is the ONLY way to play. But, to intentionally scuff off other peoples opinion and deny the right and abilities of other to think and explore alternative combat strategy is in itself an act of supreme ignorance. It is the center of Narrow mindedness. It is that type of idiosyncratism that ruins the game for people and makes active players openly looking to explore a GAME nothing more than Bots fulfilling a function in robot gameplay dynamics.

I will Continue to Use my macro

/startattack
/cast [modifier:alt] Hammer of the righteous; Crusader Strike
/cast Shield of the righteous

Until Blizzard Put SoTR on a GCD. Until then ....I like it and I see no viable reason not to. excluding the narrow minded ideals of Self declared experts.
SotR was specifically removed from the common global so that it could be used reactionary when necessary. Faking a global on it while simultaneously blatantly ignoring the benefits of Boundless Conviction is not a good thing.
11/11/2013 02:15 AMPosted by Saoiren
I can maintain Continuous upkeep of my SoTR debuff.


Prove this and EVERYONE here would have your macro by tonight. I honestly doubt that you have higher than 45% uptime on your sotr, on any fight. I have double your haste and i cant do what your saying. I can keep my sotr buff up for about a minute, so 15 seconds really doesn't seem that good....

11/11/2013 02:15 AMPosted by Saoiren
The Current version of Wow Seems to have everything set up in a manner that makes in difficult to go with alternative strategy and you seem to get a number of people who sit there and dictate and declare there is only one way to play and MY way is the ONLY way to play.


Basically your just QQ, that your strat/play style is not a good alternative. Your not even a full haste build.... Playing a prot pally correctly is not a walk in the park, hoping that a macro makes it that way is not productive.

Until Blizzard Put SoTR on a GCD. Until then ....I like it and I see no viable reason not to. excluding the narrow minded ideals of Self declared experts.


Curious, what is your CD for Sotr.... I bet its not off GCD. I can show ya up to 75% uptime on sotr and many fights in high 60's. No expert here, but if you have 3.67s cd on CS....... well check

Edit: lets throw in a simple fight for ya. Paragons... Rik'kal the Dissector uses Injection on the tank. It does not affect the tank if his active mitigation is up. So, how would ya deal w/ him?
Yeah.... that's the reason that macroin SoTr to another ability is terrible, in normal/heroic you need to have the buff on yourself up at a regular interval... and yes you can just not use cs for a few seconds while your waiting for the attack to land, but by doing this your sacrificing a lot of hp just so you can be lazy and only use two buttons.... I mean w/e its your game to play the way you want but don't advise others to play it like that...
11/11/2013 08:17 AMPosted by Grôgnárd
SotR was specifically removed from the common global so that it could be used reactionary when necessary.


I can use it when Necessary. The macro goes directly to SoTR when CS is on CD. Or I can hold off on CS. As it stands if you think about it I have just made Crusader Strike A beefed up version of itself.

My Crusader Strike now also offers the SoTR ability. Just like any other buff or debuff and I have essentially made SoTR only Cost 2 holy power.

Prove this and EVERYONE here would have your macro by tonight


I have proved it. It is used whenever I use CS and I have 3 holy power in reserve or more or Divine Purpose is activated. I use CS on CD. It's one of the first abilities I go to. Favoring it and Judgment over Consecration and holy Wrath. But I said Continuous not 100 percent upkeep. Given my CS has a 3.67 sec cd and the debuff from SotR is 3 sec. There is going to be some downtime even under optimal Circumstances. Perhaps the only reason I can see not having it bound to another Button would for durations when Divine Purpose is active. When Divine Purpose is active I could go directly to SoTR and then hit Crusader strike a half second after using SotR. As the macro stands If I used SoTR as soon and I mean as soon as the debuff dropped CS would be used because it would still be on CD for another half second. So, if I hit the button twice After using the macro to administer SotR and then again for CS I would waste one use of Divine purpose. However, we are talking about .67 sec. I don't know if my reason time is good enough to truly be able to benefit from the Situation. I suppose in practice with add on that would make me aware of my combat rotation The macro might get in the way. But at the present time I do not use the Protection paladin combat rotation add on. I just keep on eye on my active CDs.

11/11/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Rubert
Basically your just QQ, that your strat/play style is not a good alternative.


I'm not completely QQ about the game ATM. I said something had been lost. In the original version of wow before BC had come out. It was common for people to adjust there game play in different directions. People would usually discuss there spec in terms of 10 / 4 /22. ( which I am aware there are not exact number that might have been used in spec )

But, yea I would say that a good amount of game play has been lost. But blizzard has move other aspects around to compensate. you get Reforging and more complicated Raid dynamics. But it is a personal opinion of mine that I think that Reforging is actually a useless addition to the game. Although you may not understand exactly what I mean. When Bliz makes the gear they set the gear up in a manner that all the stats are there. But you have to an added step of reforging. So everything is made in a manor that puts excess stats on an armor merely for the purposes of reforge. So items are made with the understand that it needs to be reforged. Now on a paladin reforging is quite simple. It's all haste and all mastery excluding PVP gear. On other classes its more complicated. My monk for instance has to worry about break points. Which makes it someone tricky picking out exactly to have it reforged. But it's a give and a take. But the game play seems to be a my way or the high way approach to gaming where there are a lot of options but only one option is useful of considered correct. which, is the way it is currently set up and I think that takes something from the experience. But, that is the way it is and not much I can do about it. I actually only came back to the game to experience what had changed over the past 5 years since I left. I tend to get burned out on games like this. So more than likely I will be bored with the game somewhere in the next couple months. My enjoyment with games like WOW is actually the figuring out of characters and the statistics aspect of the game. Once I've figure out the character the game play starts become very dry and robot. For instance I no longer like playing Ret pally because I've figured out exactly how it is to be played. So now I'm just repeating the same process over and over and over again.

Edit: lets throw in a simple fight for ya. Paragons... Rik'kal the Dissector uses Injection on the tank. It does not affect the tank if his active mitigation is up. So, how would ya deal w/ him?


I assume I would just hold off on CS until DBM told me it was about to happen. My guild hasn't gotten to that boss yet in Flex. We are actually stuck on Spoils. Or Guild masters are looking into possible strategies and the last time we ran a few of our main players were unable to show up. In LFR its a joke and I walk right threw I have never even looked at the DGN journal for that fight to be honest.
11/11/2013 09:19 AMPosted by Rubert
what is your CD for Sotr....


1.25 sec Which I don't see important at all. I shouldn't have any need to use this abilities more than once every 3 seconds. Assuming the debuff is not removed by an enemy ability.
11/11/2013 02:12 PMPosted by Saoiren
what is your CD for Sotr....


1.25 sec Which I don't see important at all. I shouldn't have any need to use this abilities more than once every 3 seconds. Assuming the debuff is not removed by an enemy ability.


On LFR maybe, that's certainly not the case on norm let alone heroic.
I don't think your looking at this correctly. Your cd of cs is 3.67, meaning it takes 7.34 seconds to generate 3 hp, wether or not you use Sotr as soon as possible at most you have a 40% uptime of that ability, considering you will be holding off on cs more often, your up time will probably be closer to 30-35%. The thing is great, you found a way to be lazy and use one less keybind...but you can still hit sort at the same time as cs, if its not macro'd to it. So there is no advantage to your macro, only the disadvantage of having to not use cs for 3 seconds out of every 12 seconds of a fight....

Assuming the fight length is 5minutes (300 seconds) there will be 25 times during that fight that you have to not use cs (the way your playing). That's almost enough for a full 27 seconds of Stor uptime... Why would anyone look at there class and say "yes I want to take 50% more damage for a 10th of the fight" Tanks now a days are about minimizing damage intake and spikes... using a macro such as yours goes against that.
I can use it when Necessary. The macro goes directly to SoTR when CS is on CD. Or I can hold off on CS. As it stands if you think about it I have just made Crusader Strike A beefed up version of itself.


Not really, you're just blowing 3 HoPo if you have them everytime you want to hit CS, and if you want to keep CS, you just slowed down your HoPo generation. That, or you just completely destroyed any chance you had at keeping SotR back to put it up for a boss ability that requires it (Nazgrim's Execute or Rik'kal's Injection).

IE, in all the possible scenarios, something is wrong with your Macro, whereas just hitting SotR independantly is better in every one of them.

It is bad advice. That you find it works for you in Flex/LFR without ever having touched Paragon (I'll give you one bit of advice, get Skeer, let your co-tank do Rik'kal) is fine and all, but don't suggest it to other players. It is simply bad advice to give. If they want to come to this conclusion on their own let them, but don't steer them wrong.

I have proved it


You've proven nothing. At worst, you don't have HoPo for when you need to either WoG/EF, or you're slowing down HoPo generation by holding back CS or you're simply wasting SotRs. At best, you're slowing SotR by tying it to CS, when sometimes your 3rd HoPo will be on J, meaning you've delayed your SotR by 1 or 2 GCDs if you stick to the rotation.

The point is, it's lazy and bad advice to give. Again, if it's fun for you, no one is saying not to do it. We're asking you, politely, if you want to have any ounce of credibility in these forums, to not propose it to people seeking advice on how to be better.

Your advice is counter productive to the reason people come to the forums, which is to get information.

BTW, you're mistaken. WoW has always been this way, ever since Vanilla. There's always been 1 or 2 optimal ways, and a dozen very bad ways. I remember having to argue tooth and nail on these forums with people and show them the math on why a Spell Power weapon was better for threat than a Strength high DPS weapon. Yet people still insisted on "I'm a tank, I tank with a tank weapon".... Sure, have a blast tanking with Honor's Call, but Gavel of Unearthed Secrets is the choice that results in more threat output.

You're essentially doing the same thing here, saying Honor's Call is better, ignoring all the math and advice telling you it's not.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w114/redkteg97/lolowned.jpg

Still have that screenshot handy. Even used a Blue weapon back then. (This was when Righteous Fury granted a threat bonus to Holy damage, not physical damage... how times have changed).
Saoiren, there is no advantage or benefit to macroing SotR to any ability over binding it separately. No matter what you are sacrificing performance just so you don't have to think about hitting it.

This isn't an opinion. It's not a theory. It's not a guess. It's a fact.

Literally EVERYTHING that you say that your macro lets you do could be done without it, while all of the things we've mentioned are things that your macro does not allow you to do. So using your macro you gain nothing and miss out on optimization possibilities.

As Berith said, if YOU want to continue to use your macro and play that way, fine. But please, PLEASE do not tell others to do it too while trying to claim that it's not sub-optimal.
Literally EVERYTHING that you say that your macro lets you do could be done without it


This is true. I will not deny that. Everything can be done separately. Without it being bound. and these are good points.

But, I still have only 22 buttons to available on my keyboard to use and I don't have a fancy mouse with a bunch of buttons added to it. Plus I guess I don't really take the game that seriously. I mean. I under stand the points. But, I'm more a casual player at this point. When I was in High School and just out of High School I played video games much more aggressively. It ended up costing me a lot of money and wasting a lot off time. I play them not just for recreation.

I have been playing with this macro for awhile and it doesn't seem to get in the way. But for the sake of argument I would be willing to try it un macro'd. The problem is that means I have to go over all my macros and try to find a space on my action bar for one more button. I could set it up on a modifier but I would think that would defeat the purpose. It sounds like the majority of you are suggesting That I merely Push the Button for SotR and continuing along my basic combat rotation. While it is not on GCD I can push it with up interrupting any of my other abilities. But that would mean I would have to rebind everything with this in mind and then I would have to spend time instilling this new button scheme into my mind. But for the sake of argument I would be willing to try it.

On LFR maybe, that's certainly not the case on norm let alone heroic.


How would my CD on SotR effect anything. I would like that one explained. In my mind if I blow SotR consuming 3 HoPo. and the debuff it pops last 3 seconds. I should need to use it again for 3 seconds. So the CD of SoTR shouldn't matter as long as it is less than 3 sec. Using it on CD would wast the remaining time of the Debuff

11/11/2013 02:37 PMPosted by Repugnant
Assuming the fight length is 5minutes (300 seconds) there will be 25 times during that fight that you have to not use cs (the way your playing).


All of you calculations are built excluding Divine Purpose. Not that your calculations are wrong if you use a build that doesn't use divine purpose they are right. But with divine purpose my Current combat style is built on Consuming hoPo to Proc divine Purpose which can chain into infinity as far as I'm but the average chain seems to be 3 to 5 Procs in sequence. But, if using my macro while using divine purpose I can also generate more HoPo Through CS. This could be done as well without the macro. But it would take someone who was completely focused on multiple activities at a time. Because you would have to not only monitor all of the activites of a raid Adds None stop attacks Aoe. and all other mechanics in a raid. But you would have to actively be using one hand to control you character and with the other be juggling you reProc of Divine Purpose to blow SotR and Keeping the combat Sequence in motion. Which is possible. But would require an overly focused individual imo. Like I said I am a more laid back player. I try not to take the game that seriously. Especially in raid. Because in all honestly the Raid PVE gear is only Usefull in Heroic End Game DGNS. I could do almost anything in the general world of MOP with 463 gear and it is completely useless in PVP. So, the heroic Gear is really just for show. But that is just my opinion on that one. But, ultimately I think we are splitting hairs a little bit. It all adds up. But were are talking A very slight decrease in Holy Power generation and a the only way it would be optimized was if the person was overly focused on the events infront of him/her. because even if you Stumble on the keyboard for a second trying to jungle These attacks you have just lost HoPo through human error which would be equivalent to the lose of HoPo through the macro.
Honestly, if you don't have enough focus to watch a timer, and make sure you have a defensive up for it...you probably shouldn't be tanking. The vast majority of fights don't require a lot of movement. Apart from the other spells that I have bound (all of them. 50 key binds in total) I primarily use 1-4 1)jude 2) cs/hotr 3) as/taunt 4) sotr... yes I have a naga but most of my cds/interrupts are bound to that that are used infrequently in a raiding environment. Four buttons...that's the base of what you need, move...everyone should be able to hit four keybinds and watch a time even if movement is involved....
Plus I guess I don't really take the game that seriously. I mean. I under stand the points. But, I'm more a casual player at this point.
Then why did you make so many posts claiming that your macro did so many good things? You seemed to be repeatedly insisting that it was just as optimal as using them separate, in fact you made many statements that outright claimed that your macro let you do things that couldn't be done without it.

I only use a standard keyboard and a 5-button mouse as well, I have little issue keeping SotR on a separate keybind. Heck I don't even have CS and HotR macro'd together like most do.

And you're missing the point that was trying to be made: When people ask for advice they're looking for the best answers, the best advice, the best way to do things. Sure, they may, like you, choose to be a little sub-optimal in exchange for some qol, preferential or any other reason, but that's their choice to make. Your goal, our goal, should be to set them up to be able to optimize as high as they want. When you give sub-optimal advice it's like making the decision for them that they can't shoot any higher than that.
[quote]
I assume I would just hold off on CS until DBM told me it was about to happen. My guild hasn't gotten to that boss yet in Flex. We are actually stuck on Spoils. Or Guild masters are looking into possible strategies and the last time we ran a few of our main players were unable to show up. In LFR its a joke and I walk right threw I have never even looked at the DGN journal for that fight to be honest.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/

These are your WoL parses that some people might be interested in looking at. Before you start giving advice on how to play a protection paladin, you might want to learn yourself. I don't mean to be rude and offensive, but it's the truth. People want to learn how to correctly gear/gem/enchant/reforge their characters and learn how to properly keep defensive CDs up and mitigate damage accordingly. I hope you benefit from threads like these. Berith was being constructive and informative this entire thread, you would do well in listening to what he has to say, for your sake and your raid's sake.

OP, there are some great advice in this thread and Saoiren's input was a blessing in disguise. The amount of information that came out of everyone correcting Saoiren's mistakes should be enough to give you a general idea of how best to tank. Now that you know how your character's stats and spell book work, you should watch videos on youtube on what to expect for each boss fight. The more informed you are, the better decisions can be made.
11/12/2013 02:00 AMPosted by Pancakê
Then why did you make so many posts claiming that your macro did so many good things?


Well I think it does. The argument is being made that it doesn't is that by using in in conjunction with CS you are losing flexibility. Also, that by doing holding off on a Crusader strike you are wasting a moment that you could be generating holy power. That is my understanding of it at this point. However, The game play style that people seem to use is only using SoTR before a Boss does a power attack. This would make the use of SotR Much easier to manage. But, by not using SotR as soon as the debuff drops. You are nerfing yourself in other ways. For instance you are not generating BoG. Also my game play style revolves around the Use of EF and the Use of Divine Purpose. So I would think actively trying to keep SotR up at all times as much as possible Which unless you have a perfect Haste level allowing exactly 3.0 seconds CD on Crusader Strike and a perfect global CD of 1 sec be able to accomplish a complete 100 percent uptime of the Debuff from SotR becomes impossible. Until you acquire a perfect haste lvl allowing 3 holypower to be generated in 3 seconds you will never have 100 percent up time. But, my understand of the game play style used by most of the posters is to only Use SotR directly before a boss does a major attack. This opens youself up to gaining dmg from other attacks.

So the only way to truly maximize the true effectiveness of SoTR is to consider it a separate entity out side of other attacks. But this is going to put you in a position where you are going to be pushing two buttons at once because you are going to be wanting to be pushing Both SoTR and the next attack in you Combat rotation simultaneously. This gets to be taxing imo. But I'm sure there are Hardcore gamers out there that would want to be actively slamming every possible button they can get to merely for gloating privileges.

Also, I posted in response to the original poster who's thread I have basically Hi-jacked at this point. I only posted what I thought because no one was being that forthcoming with advice to him. So, if no one else is going to give the guy some advice I figured I would throw him my strategy. Something is better than nothing. I even told him that I wasn't perfect and I didn't know everything. This of course blew up in a number of negative responses. So, either way I think I accomplished something. I got people to actually say something to this guys post and if he has been reading all of it he should have learned something.

11/12/2013 02:00 AMPosted by Pancakê
And you're missing the point that was trying to be made: When people ask for advice they're looking for the best answers, the best advice,


That's the point. What advice was being given. All you people are saying to me is it is wrong for me to share ideas. Express theory and any attempt at doing so is going to lead to a number of Dorks on a computer telling you how stupid you are and how wrong you are with Posing a separate attack strategy. We are all just stupid for asking questions apparently.

insisting that it was just as optimal as using them separate


I wouldn't necessarily say it's optimal. I would say its an easy way to maintain upkeep. Infact in my primary post I even said I wasn't an expert and said it wasn't perfect. But you really have to look at the alternative. If the attack is just in you general combat rotation assuming you are only going to click one button at a time that could be a delay in an attack. That will effect optimization of your combat rotation. Seems how SotR isn't on GCD using it in conjunction with another attack would make it more optimal.

But you still aren't looking at the fact that 90 percent of these posts are pretty much a handful of people saying how wrong I am. With out putting your own !@# on the line and Posting your Tank Guide. Just a lot of Nah saying this point.
Four buttons


What 4 buttons do you use if you don't mind me asking. I Have to have a minimum of 6. 7 if you don't have Hammer of the righteous on a modifier with CS. Cs, Consecration, judgment, holy prism( or alternate from same Tier), avengers shield, holy Wrath, and Hammer of the Righteous if not on modifier.

Holy Wrath
Consecration
avengers shield

These being threat generating AOE attacks that effect more than on opponent

Crusader strike
Judgment

Being you single target Debuff

and of course SotR

Being a stand alone active damage mitigation Holy power Consumer. Which is Not on the same GCD as the other attacks.

That's 8 buttons if none are macro'd. This excludes all of you Hand techniques. All shielding Techniques. All healing Techniques.

At the present time I have 22 buttons bound. I have 3 active macro's and one button I use is a floating button which usually is my Taunt button. But its a floating button because depending on the situation I replace it with Cleanse, Rebuke and Taunt and a handful of macros I have made to combine these 3 abilities in a few different patterns. One ties rebuke and Taunt together. One ties Cleanse and rebuke together. One ties Taunt and Cleanse together. However that button is generally only my Taunt button. Having other abilities used in parallel at the same time can cause problems in boss fights. But all three can be use at the same time.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fevyohqkz91ki37x/


Looks like a waste of time... 11% and 23% uptime on sotr is really bad... if you add them together its still really bad.

SS is weak, but its even weaker w/ LOW uptime. Honestly, you shouldnt be tanking.

Saoiren should be posting and asking how to play Prot..... Not giving advice!!!!!!
Learning to keybind all of the paladin's toolkit seperately (maybe with a few mouseover macros and cancelaura macros) is paramount to effectively playing a paladin. "Tying" abilities together that do not share a global is kind of copping out, and therefore not optimally using those abilities (for example why would you ever need to taunt AND interrupt at the same time?!).

Just off the top of my head I have about 30 keybinds for prot, and I use most of them (situational uses for something like hand of freedom/salvation).

People are honestly just trying to give constructive feedback and you are defending a position that is not optimal and arguably not even viable, because you may be using a sotr in low damage moments, or (as you just described it) holding CS for a better time to use Sotr, which is needlessly throttling your HP generation.
Apart from the other spells that I have bound (all of them. 50 key binds in total) I primarily use 1-4 1)judge 2) cs/hotr 3) as/taunt 4) sotr.


I did list them, those are my four primary abilities, anything else is rarely or never used in a fight. Yes I do have HW and CONC bound to e, but I use that mostly as a filler if I can't do anything else

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