The good side of Mythic 20man

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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The Crying on this thread is epic..

I really don't care one way or another. I play kill bosses no matter the format.

These changes are going to make it easier for casuals to raid all content except High-End encounters and it puts to rest the controversy of 25 v 10.. World First will truly be World First. The added bonus is the quality of encounter and the balancing of the encounter will be much much better.

Also those who say their computers can't handle 25 man... Well with the polygon count going up and the improvement to graphics in the game.. your probably not going to be able to raid 10 mans even if they kept it

I am just excited about the quality of the encounters improving and i am pretty sure Blizzard is sick of tuning and designing high-end encounters that have to work in both formats

Cheers I am looking forward to it
Finally as a software developer myself I an understand the strain the poor choices the designers have made in the past have put on the currently process. To that end I can see it being reasonable to move to this platform if you concede to making it 15 man instead of 20. I have yet to see a good agrument as to why 15 wouldn't be better. Yes 25 mans have to drop 10 players. But the impact is much less to all guilds as a whole and it gives a much better chance that existing 10 man guilds will survive.


15 Isnt better because it wouldn't be able to flex class comps, they can realisitcally require 1 of each 11 classes in a 15 or 20 man, but you know as well as I do 20 would be much easier on that.

Not to mention, this "compromising" you guys keep doing just proves more points, isnt recruiting 5 people into "TIGHT KNIT BFFS IRL FOR 20 YEARS" communities going to be an equally large issue as recruiting 10?
I understand the logic behind this change and why Blizzard feels it will make their jobs easier and why 25 man heroic raiders are happy about it. Unfortunately, all I can think about everytime I look at this change coming is how Blizzard has essentially ripped out the part of the game I like the most, and I keep trying to figure out whether there's still a way for me to still enjoy the game enough to stick around.

I've been raiding with the same guild since vanilla (we had 2 40 man teams back then). I've done the larger raids for several years, and I've slowly seen the friends I've played with gradually drop out of the game as life and other events intervened. In Wrath we got to the point where all our raid leaders were burned out on raid leading larger groups, so we welcomed the change in Cata where we could have smaller more closely knit raid groups whose schedules worked for everyone in the groups.

I started my own 10 man at the beginning of Cata to raid weekends, because my work schedule didn't really allow for me to raid during prime raid hours anymore. I've always enjoyed having a group of fairly close knit members who could be relied upon to show up, be adult about things and generally have a good time. My group never raided with a bench- we relied on friends and alts and fillins when someone couldn't make it, and usually my folks were really good about advance notice so it worked. Over the last couple years I've had to replace folks in the group, but we've managed to keep things going fairly well- with 6.5 hrs to raid a week (and no people to swap out for optimizing encounters) we were never the most progressed group, but we made our way through the content at our own pace, getting to heroics and doing as many as we could before the new tier was released.

Now I'm told that if I want to keep doing what is essentially the heroic content (renamed though it is), I will need to go back to the days of large group raiding- with constant recruiting, having to run a bunch of extra people to cover attendance issues, needing more formal gear distribution, and all the other headaches that come with leading a raid twice as large as the one I currently run.

Alternately, I can leave my guild that I've been in for 9 years, and hope to find another guild which meets my schedule (there aren't a lot of them) that I actually enjoy raiding with.

Or if I prefer, I can just stick with raiding what is essentially normal mode content (which I would have been done with weeks ago if that was all I was doing this tier) after having spent 9 years in this game raiding more challenging content and then wonder what else I can find in the game to get excited about.

Or I could just stop playing and find something else to do with my time (my apologies to those who use my website, but currently this is the most likely option)

Blizzard doesn't really have an answer to this problem I know, but I've talked to many friends in similar boats and a lot of them are also wondering if maybe it's just time to call it quits.

This is pretty accurate.
Or I could just stop playing and find something else to do with my time (my apologies to those who use my website, but currently this is the most likely option)


which site is this referring too
Seeing a lot of debate about the number 20. Let me take a stab at clearing up a few things:

We chose to put Mythic at 20 largely for the function of raid design. One of the biggest issues we're currently facing with 10-player Heroic raiding is that of raid composition. It's impossible for every group to have every class, and often that means they're lacking in certain tools, which in turn means that we can't design encounters around those tools (or if we do, it becomes extremely frustrating for the 10-player Heroic guild that suddenly needs a Paladin for Hand of Protection).

We want to be able to use those sorts of mechanics again. Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid. We like it when someone gets to feel awesome and have a special task on a fight because of class abilities that otherwise wouldn't get much use.

We can't do that when we're designing with a 10-player raid size in mind. We don't think we'd be able to get away with it at 15 either. At 20, it becomes a lot more acceptable for us to say "you should probably bring a Mage to Spellsteal this." And honestly, that's just one example of the sort of encounter mechanics we can start to utilize in a larger group size.

I'd also call into question the statement of "It's easier to drop people than it is to recruit them." It's technically true, yes -- finding new raiders is harder than just not inviting the ones you have -- but totally ignores the fact that cutting people from your roster often means losing people you like. Which feels better: making new friends, or telling your current ones that they don't get to play with you any more? We're already asking a lot of many 25-player Heroic groups to cut 5 people.

As I mentioned before, this was not a decision we came to lightly. It's definitely going to be a very scary transition for a lot of people. We knew that when we made the decision. We just also feel quite strongly that, when the dust settles, we'll be able to provide a better raiding experience for everyone.


So basically too bad so sad. Last time we heard that from Blizz we saw a massive drop in subs (Ghostcrawler's infamous Dungeons are hard blog).

Since Blizz has already decided to kill 10 man raiding I'm not sure why they decided on 20 for Mythic and hurt the 25 man guilds as well. No need to screw over both sizes.
I hope Blizzard will be offering free server/faction transfers for a few months before and after the xpac since they are forcing the majority of 10 man raiders to look else where if they would like to raid in a 20 man environment.
wow is a social game, 20 man mythic should bring that more to light, i hope this brings back the epic feel to doing such raids
11/13/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Ðemolition
Or I could just stop playing and find something else to do with my time (my apologies to those who use my website, but currently this is the most likely option)


which site is this referring too


Femaledwarf.com It's a hunter dps sim. Been a while since I've used it, not being a hunter anymore, but it was a very useful tool when I did play one.
I hope Blizzard will be offering free server/faction transfers for a few months before and after the xpac since they are forcing the majority of 10 man raiders to look else where if they would like to raid in a 20 man environment.


I think the request for free/discounted transfers will have a higher chance to be accommodated by Blizzard, than revising their Mythic 20m design. It's done deal. Take it, or leave it.
The announcement of mythic has essentially turned every 10man guild into a 20man guild overnight, even if the new expansion is a ways off. How many 25man heroic guilds suddenly found them short 10 players in the middle of T10 or T13 and survived to keep successfully raiding as a 25man heroic guild when the next expansion was finally released? Granted that this time players have no other heroic option to move to, it's either 20man or bust, how many players are actually going to make that choice to return to a large raid group?

The other thing to consider is the number of heroic raid leaders for groups of any size. Many of the 25man heroic guilds died because the raid leads just got tired of managing 25+ players, even if they truly enjoyed the raid size more. Managing 20+ players is going to be just as much of a headache.

How many of the current 10man heroic raid leaders are going to be willing to continue raid leading for 20man mythic? No raid lead equals no raid group, no matter how many players want to be raiding. You only need half of them willing to make the move to create enough groups for everyone currently raiding heroic, but will half do it?

For all of you saying "adapt or die", "I'll just find another group to kill bosses", etc. please remember that your own "survival" in heroic raiding is going to be dependent on the number of others who do the same and especially the raid leads. You might want to start sporting a better attitude about the realities of the situation.
11/13/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Rags


which site is this referring too


Femaledwarf.com It's a hunter dps sim. Been a while since I've used it, not being a hunter anymore, but it was a very useful tool when I did play one.


Ah.

Welp, another nail in the coffin that MoP built for theorycrafting.

Thats a little sad, I was hoping it would be noxxic or something
Also, someone needs to decide on who the 5 people are not worth bringing to 20 man mythic from a 25 man raid. Would you stick around if you were basically told you are not good enough?

And going from 10 to 20 man raiding by combining raids, here is my quote from a different thread:

Actually, there are related problems to that. Like, if you merge two 10 man raids, you have 4 tanks. This eats heavily into possible class combos.

You have whatever their class combination is, which means the likely hood of having the class they assume you will have is much lower due to tank/healer overlap. With only 10 dps slots and 11 classes there will always be one missing and if there are any class overlaps, then the likely hood of not having the class goes up exponentially.

You also need to learn a new tank or pair of tank's tanking style, as well as how to raid with completely new people. I just see progression being a massive mess.


This is in reference to them bringing back class specific roles (mage/warlock tanks) to mythic difficulty.
I see no good side to 20man raiding except for tuning purposes, outside of that everything is bad. I really hope they see the how bad an idea this is during beta an basically scrap the idea.
ts not reasonable to first expect majority of heroic guilds (10 mans are the majority) to double in size


It's reasonable to assume they will either double in size or die and add 10 more recruits to the pool of raid groups who will successfully double in size.

11/13/2013 10:58 AMPosted by Kelyne
Its not reasonable to assume that everyone in existing 10 man are going to have computers able to handle 20 man raids.


Considering the most used raid in the game is LFR which is a 25m raid it is very reasonable to assume most people can handle 20 man raids.

11/13/2013 10:58 AMPosted by Kelyne
Its not reasonable to assume that existing guild leaders have the time or ability to manage 20 people instead of 10.


It is reasonable to assume the leaders who do not have the time or ability to manage 20 people should not be rewarded with the same content as those who actually do put in the effort and have the ability.
Those of you who have been with us for a while might remember things like Mage tanks on High King Maulgar, or Priests using Mind Control on Instructor Razuvious. We want it to be okay when, say, the Paladin can use Hand of Protection to clear a dangerous debuff, because we can reasonably assume that most guilds will have at least one Paladin in their raid.


DPS tanks could easily be achieved with an Alysrazor style fixate (or any number of similar options). Maybe you forgot, but there was a 10 man version of Instructor Razuvious. And Paladins have been safely clearing dangerous debuffs with HoP for several expansions without the universe exploding.

The Instructor Raz example is doubly hilarious because it would make a talent choice mandatory for certain encounters, not just a class in particular. Maybe I'm not seeing the huge amount of design space opened up by requiring your raid to, for example, bring a Mage specced into Nether Tempest.
I'm happy with the 20 man Mythic format.

Looking forward to more interesting encounters!
I think its reasonable assume that in 2014, people will be able to run a program in 20 man that ran 40 man in 2005 at 60 FPS

You realize 2014 will be the 10 year anniversary for WoW Release?

Stop using the computer excuse, we had raiders with on-board video that were doing 25 fine.
11/13/2013 11:57 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Considering the most used raid in the game is LFR which is a 25m raid it is very reasonable to assume most people can handle 20 man raids.

Actually a lot of computers can't handle LFR -- mine goes to 1 FPS and slows way down and I just complete the raid anyway because I don't care about my performance. That's not going to work at a high level. So I'm looking at new computers before I raid 20/25, NBD, point is completing LFR doesn't mean your computer can handle it.

edit: ^ seriously the game has grown so much since then, particularly in the combat logging and the procs and buffs and things that are logged. Requirements for the game have actually gone up.

edit:
And Paladins have been safely clearing dangerous debuffs with HoP for several expansions without the universe exploding.

it's actually been a huge balance problem in 10s whenever it opens up solo-tanking.
DPS tanks could easily be achieved with an Alysrazor style fixate (or any number of similar options). Maybe you forgot, but there was a 10 man version of Instructor Razuvious. And Paladins have been safely clearing dangerous debuffs with HoP for several expansions without the universe exploding.


Siegecrafter adds on heroic are very reminiscent of Alysrazor, but even more interesting.

The debuff thing, was only a major concern in tot, where about half the bosses were cheesable by Paladin, compared to other tiers, where it was once or twice per expansion that a paladin could cheese.

10 man Razivious is actually more proof why this is a good change, not proof that it's been done. Do you really think the terrible crystal idiocy was good design? If nax was a new instance and not a rehash, they wouldn't of even had the MC's on the fight, and they would of just put unbalancing strike on timer with a cooldown and made it another bland time your cooldown with adds fight.
Actually a lot of computers can't handle LFR -- mine goes to 1 FPS and slows way down and I just complete the raid anyway because I don't care about my performance. That's not going to work at a high level. So I'm looking at new computers before I raid 20/25, NBD, point is completing LFR doesn't mean your computer can handle it.


If you get 1 fps in 25, you get 10 fps at best in 10, or you're exaggerating.

^ seriously the game has grown so much since then, particularly in the combat logging and the procs and buffs and things that are logged. Requirements for the game have actually gone up.


All the things that are server side, and take up less than 10kb of data from your side.

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