The good side of Mythic 20man

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Yeah I know but I think it would be nice to have another sale before expansion releases.

Best points that have been said is in my opinion

1)Connected Realms. How much this will help and how far the raiding pool will increase for some people. It's to the point that even some larger servers would definitely benefit from merger. Blackrock could certainly use an influx of Alliance players or hell even more horde.

2)Connects with 1 but there are realms where 10 mans are the only type of raiding that exists. Those realms are probably going to be even harder to find people. Also as some said no 25 man where players are shed.

3)How bad is the poaching going to be?
11/12/2013 05:13 PMPosted by Borgthor
I agree that a single size raid for the very top end of progression is required for a myriad of reasons. I'd like the number to be less than 20, but that's my personal preference.


And that's exactly what taints this idea so much. All of these ppl thinking 10 mans hate this idea are wrong. 10 mans love the idea of a single hardmode raid difficulty size. But expecting 10 mans to double in size (especially with the arguments theyve given us) is asinine.

Theyre turning a truly excellent idea into something terrible because of the fact that they chose 20 instead of 15.
How about we split the baby and make it 17 mans
Lore,

While I understand the arguments you're making in favor of the set 20-man Mythic raid size, I feel you're missing some of the true issues. First of all, I'm thrilled about the advent of flex-scaling for what is currently normal mode. I think it will give me a lot of flexibility as a GM to simply shoot for a raid group of 12-15 people instead of our current 10, knowing that no one should ever have to sit and that we can afford to have a few people leave or miss a day and still raid.

However, the problem for my guild (and I would imagine many others currently focusing on 10s) is going to be making the transition from flex-scaling Normal/Heroic to 20-man Mythic. I don't mean to make this another 10 vs. 25-man argument, but it is nonetheless a fact that the change with Cata of 10- and 25-man dropping the same items led to a massive increase in raid guilds that have chosen to focus on the 10-man raid size. This was often due to simple preference, rather than lack of availability of raiders, as is the case with my guild. I was under the impression that Blizzard considered this a successful change, especially considering they've taken this to the next level with flex-scaling. The problem is, I feel that with Mythic raids set at 20-man, this will simply revive the pre-Cata dominance of large raid sizes, just with that size at 20 rather than 25. Any guild that has any aspirations of doing Mythic mode (even just the first couple bosses toward the end of a tier) will be forced to adapt their roster to the 20-player model. Trying to either scrape up 5-7 new people for the most difficult raid level or trying to combine with another small guild just for Mythic are not attractive options.

As a longtime former guild master yourself, I'm sure you're well aware of these and similar issues. Simply put, my guild has raided exclusively 10-mans since early Cata and we're very happy with that raid size. I don't want to feel forced to choose between either massively changing how my guild raids to accommodate 20-man Mythics, or having to forgo any thoughts of attempting Mythic bosses at all. I would recommend changing the Mythic raids to either a set 10-man size, or simply a flex-scaling model like everything else is going to be. I understand that "accessibility" is not meant to be the watchword for the highest raiding difficulty, but the barrier to entry should be the ability of the players you got there with, not the logistical challenge of finding 5-7 new players solely for that mode.
Better than 20.
1) This change is coming with an expansion. Historically, an expansion release has always been a volatile time for guild rosters – and a great time for recruitment. When everyone’s gear is suddenly equalized, the pool of potential recruits swells dramatically. It's also a time in which a lot of former players, friends, and guildmates return to the game. Sure, maybe not all of the above will be of the caliber you’re looking for as a Mythic-minded raiding guild, but you only need 10.


Lore, while I also appreciate the longer term benefits of this, I think you have the experience to recognize gear does not make the player. This cannot be articulated well enough when it comes to mythic. While I may fill my roster in the short term with marginally competent reasonably geared players, they are going to have gain experience, or be recruited out. I guess you are at least giving me some viability in players due to gear, and I have the wisdom to select based on achievement history. I mean, this isn't my first large guild.

I will add that generally, the first tier of an expansion are often harder than the later tiers, with exception of naxxramas 2.0. I have to ask the question, of how accommodating are you going to make this process through content tuning? Are we going balls-to-the-wall in tier 17 during this transformation process like tier 11 10-man pre-nerf, or are we going with something a little more reasonable like tier 10 25-man?
I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)

Can we PLEASE get SoO normal/heroic flex scaling a couple months before the expansion hits so guilds that DO want to get to mythic asap are not screwed? This has a few potential gains for the raiding community as a whole beyond just helping recruiting, too.
You literally paraphrased the answer given at the Q&A at Blizzcon. There's sentences there that match that answer word for word.


And? That is the official response to the concerns.

What else are they supposed to write when it's already been addressed, multiple times.


Something better?
Talks are already under way for three guilds in my server to create one new one for mythic raiding. Looks promising =)
Talks are already under way for three guilds in my server to create one new one for mythic raiding. Looks promising =)


Be wary of this, there's a lot that goes into personality management. I suggest setting up an officer council from each of the constituent groups for resolution of issues. Don't let it eat raid time, and be hasty in tabling issues or sitting people who won't comply until after raid time.


And? That is the official response to the concerns.

What else are they supposed to write when it's already been addressed, multiple times.


Something I would've preferred to hear?


Ftfy to what you actually mean
I think that’s an easy one to forget about. ..... It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


You do realise that's the exact reason that guilds who are Mythic quality will be looking at mostly post-expansion shifts, yes?

It's not realistic to hit 20 before the expansion. Some guilds will likely be able to pull off bulking up to about 15 or so especially if they're 14/14H because at that point there'll be people more than willing to sit and so on. For everyone else, they'll want to finish content, not run around.

Which essentially ensures that barring rare exceptions, every Mythic-capable guild will be not-Mythic-ready for Warlords, unless there's some massive leverage to draw on. And that's getting past the volatility of the 10-man guild losing a few players to the expansion. Even if their roster was completely in tact, it's not just 10 more people needed, it's somewhere around 12, and if you include expansion end chaos, that jumps up to 15 very fast. "You only need 10" is one of the dumbest statements possible to make about this situation.

Tack on the concept of ensuring said recruits are of good quality, and many will be spending the entirety of T17 and possiblity some of T18 simply getting to the point of being Mythic ready - beyond the gimmes. That's not a small affair - it's not 6 months and done. The 6 months until the expansion is very limited on what it can actually achieve, and the more time a guild is spending during current content getting ready, the more bored people are by easy content*.

While 10-player guilds who .... higher pool of potential recruits.


Well, not really because of the previous point you already made about expansions being volatile. Any players who do leave won't need to be shed, and given the sorts of experiences as a 25H guild, that's almost close enough to where a 25M will naturally transition to 20M (occasional 1-2 recruits required).

Ultimately, we feel that the long-term benefits for everyone .... even for players in guilds facing this transition.


It'd be great if you could elaborate on this beyond the normal stuff that's been on all the PR announcements

As it is, you're at a point where 10-man and 25-man raid environments are more or less having decent content. Sure, one boss swings to be harder on one mode and easier on another mode, but by and large the variations are tiny - and they swing both ways. The actual instances you've had encounters that had huge holes (cf: Norushen, Shek'zeer, etc.), it's been more of a case of something very simple being missed by whoever was in charge of that (it really doesn't take much math to plot why Norushen wasn't a good trade) or a lack of willingness to use creativity in spacial environments (e.g. superelectrifying the outer 40% of Lei Shen's platform, or chunking Al'Akir's platform in half or shrinking it or one of several other solutions in 10-man).

And when it comes to encounter creativity/variety, I hope it's not all about the couple of examples used like Spellsteal and Enslave. Even back from BC, those were rare, not actually all THAT special (in fact, if it weren't for the specific Lock spec, ranged tanking would have been done a lot more by Shadow Priests and Boomkins and so on), and mostly gimmicks that get old fast that reintroduce a failure point for raids even starting (Mage unavailable? Screwed. Recruiting 2 of each class would instantly get to an over 30 roster for a 20-man group. Some groups simply will not see people of specific classes - as a 25-man we only ever had 1 DK, sometimes we had no Locks, etc., simply because those classes just happened to have low availability of quality people).

Encounter creativity should mean things like the Sons phase, Inner Demons, Lei Shen's platforms, Norushen's trials, good ways of employing council fights like Omnotron as opposed to Spirit Kings when RNG existed, etc. I would say it include things you've been employing for Healer mechanics like the Shield mechanics or Baleroc, but I think most of those have been terrible in a way that 10-man and 25-man had nothing to do with. I don't see where we're worse off now or limited to any unacceptable degree that would make the benefit of introducing this much chaos worth it - so it'd be great to hear why you think it is.

I also don't see why you feel you're THAT limited to where 15-man would be unacceptable instead of 20-man. 15-man still leaves the door open to expect a decent roster with one of every class as long as you don't do something silly like leave an ability usable only by one spec or make things impossible without that spec.

Either way, I hope you don't shift THIS 2 expansions down again.

*None of this has gotten into the destruction of a close-knit guild environment which you specifically wanted to recognise as a good thing and shored up. Or the cynical idea of $$$ on server transfers.
roll tide.
4) Flexible scaling for Heroic (or Mists of Pandaria's "Normal") difficulty will allow many guilds to "ease in" to a 20-player raid size. Granted, if you’re planning on zoning into Mythic the first day it’s available, this won’t help you much, but for the guild that will spend a few weeks or months on Heroic (MoP Normal) difficulty before eventually clearing it and starting on Mythic, you’ll have plenty of time to expand your roster. What’s more, those new recruits won’t be expected to just warm the bench while they wait.

I think that’s an easy one to forget about. It’s easy to make a mental comparison between a Warlords of Draenor 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 20 for Mythic, and a Mists of Pandaria 10-player guild trying to recruit up to 25. But that comparison doesn’t really work, because the absolute biggest challenge that the MoP guild in this example faces is finding people who are willing to wait around and possibly not even raid as the guild expands its roster. That’s not a problem in Warlords – while you’re still working through and gearing up in Heroic, player 11, 12, 13, and so on will be able to join you. It’s much easier to keep recruits around when they’re actually getting to play. :)


While all this is true, it's not the full issue. The problem isn't the ability to transition to a larger roster, it's about the desire to do so. From the release of flex-scaling raids, I can only assume that Blizz does want people to be able to raid at the group size that they find most comfortable. But with Mythic raids locked at 20 players, that means guilds that prefer raiding with smaller groups have to either completely revamp the way they raid to accomodate the larger size Mythic mode, or resign themselves to having no access to the final raid difficulty.
Is the new Normal, "Heroic" going to be flexible raid size? That is, will it be 10 or 25 or 10-25? If it's fixed, then that creates a really stupid period every new content patch where the 20 man raid has to split up or add 5 when raiding normal the first week.

I also have the other problems with Mythic raid size generally messing with guilds, but then it'll probably hurt 10 mans a lot more than 25 mans (I'm in a 25).
Everything is Flexible in 6.0, including "Heroic".
Everything is Flexible in 6.0, including "Heroic".


Except "Mythic"
11/12/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Waraila
That said, I think there are several key factors worth bringing up that will help make the transition less frightening overall. For example:


Lore, one thing that worries some people in the 25 man 'being shed' position is the whole melee stigma that has been ongoing for 2 expacs now. Melee are becoming more and more stigmatised to be not as good as ranged, and ranged heavy raids are the norm. A lot of people in 25 are worried that the 5 lost to the downscale are going to be melee roles because 20 man isn't going to accommodate as many melee as there were in 25.

I hope this is going to be seriously looked at by the devs designing raid encounters to ensure that fights on Mythic do not heavily penalise melee, and no I don't mean making melee just tunnel the boss either. I mean that bringing us means making the mechanics exponentially harder to accomplish. It needs to be more balanced between the two dps roles.


This is definitely a concern of mine as well, but in fairness, I think in Siege of Orgrimmar, the situation with melee has improved greatly.

If you compare each fight in SoO, normal or heroic, on 25-man and decide whether it is melee friendly or ranged friendly, I think you can easily see that it is mostly balanced now. Ranged have an almost equal overall hard time compared to melee.

But alas, I do agree. The stigma with melee desperately does need to continue to be addressed. SoO proved that they are addressing it, but if they continue, things will get better.
Typical....blueposts always so damn biased in their response. Has anyone ever seen a blue post with the bravery to actually agree with the fans? Perhaps they afraid...

But hey just like the nerfs and buffs and now the raid sizes from 40 down to 10 and back up, welcome to the roller coaster world of warcraft...

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