Gear Changes in Warlords of Draenor

General Discussion
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Hardcore Raiders ... they'll push for you having at least 3/4 your gear with a Socket or useful Tertiary stat (minimum) with some pieces having socket AND Tertiary Stat. The more casual raiders might only ask for 1/4 to 1/2. Either way, its going to be an uphill battle fighting against RNG. Not a good thing.


Tell me how many hardcore raiding guilds do you see demanding that their raiders are geared in 3/4 Warforged gear?

Because the sockets/tertiary stats are the exact same thing as warforged.
11/26/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Feanorion
Go reread the thread. You have several very wrong assumptions.


You go right on trusting Blizzard, expecting them to:

1) do what they say they will do.
2) do what they say will do correctly.


If you don't actually believe Blizzard will do anything they say they're going to, why bother posting in this thread? After all, they're obviously lying, and will not introduce any changes to gear at all!
Feanorion I agree with you completely. But I believe they said Readiness is a new Secondary Stat(beside the point). If I had a choice between an Ilvl 600 Chest and an ilvl 600 Chest with a Socket, its obvious the regular Chest is going to be considered Ghetto.

People will FARM to get the gear that has the right stats for their spec AND has at the very least a Socket or a Tertiary stat that is USEFUL to them. This means they will no doubt get twenty or thirty copies(unless real lucky) which will either be Dusted or sold for gold, until they get the right Tertiary/Socket with the right Secondary Stats. This WILL affect the economy in a bad way.

Hardcore Raiders ... they'll push for you having at least 3/4 your gear with a Socket or useful Tertiary stat (minimum) with some pieces having socket AND Tertiary Stat. The more casual raiders might only ask for 1/4 to 1/2. Either way, its going to be an uphill battle fighting against RNG. Not a good thing.

I was just clarifying (I don't know how many times I'll say this) that Secondary Stats (haste,crit,mastery,etc) are NOT randomly rolled. Its the "Socket", "Bonus iLvl" and "Tertiary Stats", IE Bonus Stats, that are randomly rolled.


They aren't getting rid of raid lockouts. There is no way to "farm" for items with bonuses outside of just doing the raids every week, which they would already be doing anyways.
11/26/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Secondwind
Hardcore Raiders ... they'll push for you having at least 3/4 your gear with a Socket or useful Tertiary stat (minimum) with some pieces having socket AND Tertiary Stat. The more casual raiders might only ask for 1/4 to 1/2. Either way, its going to be an uphill battle fighting against RNG. Not a good thing.


Tell me how many hardcore raiding guilds do you see demanding that their raiders are geared in 3/4 Warforged gear?

Because the sockets/tertiary stats are the exact same thing as warforged.


they dont have to demand it cause warforged rains from the sky on 25's.

these will be much more rare (if what they say is true).
Now that BlizzCon is over and Warlords of Draenor has been unveiled, we’ve been getting some additional questions about the gear changes currently planned for the expansion. To help shed some more light on what you can expect, we thought we’d take a bit of time to clarify a few things.

Keep in mind that as with anything still in development, the information we share now will likely change as we progress, but this should help give you a good understanding of our goals and thinking.


Armor Pieces: Head, Shoulders, Chest, Legs, Gloves, Belt, Boots, and Bracers

Primary Stats

One of our main intents for primary stats is to make sure that higher Item Level (ilvl) pieces from new content are almost always superior to items from older content. Further, the changes we’re making to primary stats will help make pieces more universal, so groups will find gear drops more useful more often. This means you’ll be disenchanting less Intellect plate (only usable by Paladins today) or Agility mail (only usable by Hunters and Enhancement Shamans today). As we discussed at BlizzCon, we’re accomplishing this by making it so primary stats for a given piece of gear will change based on your current spec, though it’s likely that only new gear added in Warlords will work like this, as it might be impossible to implement this for all existing gear. Here are some additional points to know regarding the changes to primary stats:

  • Armor pieces will always have some amount of Stamina and Armor value.
  • Armor pieces always have Strength, Intellect, or Agility as a primary stat. Plate has either Strength or Intellect. Mail and Leather have either Agility or Intellect. Cloth has Intellect.
  • In the cases of Plate, Mail, and Leather, the primary stat will change depending on your current spec. Specifically, casters (including healers) will get Intellect, and melee or tank specs will get Strength or Agility.

  • Secondary Stats

    Our intent for secondary stats is to differentiate pieces that occupy the same slot, allow for player customization, and to further differentiate specs within a class. Here are a few important points regarding the changes that are currently planned for secondary stats:

  • Secondary stats don’t change based on spec on armor pieces (or any piece).
  • Secondary stats on armor pieces can still include Haste, Crit, and/or Mastery.
  • Secondary stats on armor pieces will no longer include Hit, Expertise, Dodge, or Parry. These are being retired in Warlords, and will likely be removed even from existing gear.
  • Secondary stats on armor pieces will also no longer include Spirit, nor will they include Bonus Armor, which are reserved exclusively for non-armor pieces (which are explained below).
  • In addition, secondary stats on armor pieces may include several new stats we are exploring such as Readiness, Amplify, and Multi-strike. Technical Game Designer Chadd “[url="https://twitter.com/Celestalon"]Celestalon[/url]” Nervig has been sharing more details about these on his Twitter account.

  • Additional Properties

    Armor pieces may have three other properties at random. First, items may be higher Item Level than normal. For sake of this discussion, we’ll call these items Warforged for now.

    Second, items may have gem sockets. Unlike gem sockets today, gem sockets in Warlords of Draenor will be rarer but more powerful. There will be no socket bonuses, but we are strongly considering requiring the right color gem for the socket. All gems will grant secondary stats, including Spirit and Bonus Armor (see below).

    Finally, items may have tertiary stats. These include things like a bonus to Movement Speed, Sturdiness, Life Steal, Avoidance (less AoE damage), and Cleave. Because of the rarity of tertiary stats, stacking them to produce (for example) a Movement Speed set will take enormous effort.

    The design intent of these additional qualities on items is to make itemization more exciting and to give it more longevity. Rather than waiting weeks to get a breastplate, you might get one pretty quickly—but to get a true “best-in-slot” item will take much more effort and a bit of luck. Here are a few more points to consider for these properties:

  • We haven’t decided on exact numbers yet, but for the current discussion, assume something like a 10% chance for an item to have an additional property. It’s possible for one item to have all three of these properties, but the chance of that is very small.
  • The properties are determined at the time an item is looted (and possibly even includes crafted gear). For example, if an ogre boss drops two copies of the Bracers of Crithto, one might be a normal version, while another might have a tertiary stat.

  • Being Warforged, having a socket, or having a tertiary stat do not count against the stat budget of the item—they are strictly bonuses. The item will not have reduced primary or secondary stats in order to have these additional properties.

    Set Bonuses

    Similar to primary stats, set bonuses will also change depending on your current spec. This means a Paladin may only need one tier set rather than one for Holy and one for Retribution. It also means that set bonuses can be more tailored towards a spec. For instance, Marksman Hunter set bonuses can have different bonuses or different numbers than a Survival Hunter set. Like today, not every helmet, chest piece, or other piece of armor that drops will be part of a tier set.

    Non-Armor Pieces: Weapons, Rings, Cloak, Necklace, and Trinkets

    Primary Stats

    In general, most of these pieces will not have Strength, Agility, or Intellect. Instead, they may have Attack Power or Spell Power to make sure they are more universal. However, our current thought it to keep primary stats on weapons so that they continue to feel iconic and special. Many of the items will have Stamina as well.

    Secondary Stats

    The information about secondary stats on armor above also applies here. In addition, Spirit and Bonus Armor can appear on these items. Spirit is only useful for healers. Bonus Armor is generally only useful for tanks. A Spell Power piece without Spirit may be attractive to healers or may be attractive to DPS casters instead.

    The intent of including Spirit and Bonus Armor on these pieces is to make sure some items are still valuable only to healer and tank specs, helping to make sure they don’t have too much competition for gear against the more numerous DPS players in a given group. These are also stats we consider interesting, because how much of each of these stats a tank or healer might want is more subjective. For example, one tank in a group might prefer more Bonus Armor while another might prefer more Haste.

    In the case of Spirit, imagine that stacking Spirit on every non-armor slot will give you more mana regeneration than you would reasonably need. That is to say, you likely won’t need Spirit on every single spot in order to function as a healer.

    In the case of Bonus Armor, this stat fills the niche that Dodge and Parry fill today. We like tanks avoiding attacks as a mechanic, but it hasn’t proven to be a particularly interesting gearing strategy. However, we still want a dedicated damage-mitigation stat, and Bonus Armor will be it.

    Additional Qualities

    These items will also have a chance to have one of the additional qualities discussed above (Warforged, gems, and tertiary stats), and the information related to these qualities on armor still applies here.

    Examples

    A Holy Paladin has a raid tier set from the Blackrock Foundry. If she switches to her Retribution spec, the tier set is still functional, as the primary stats and set bonuses change. However, if she prefers Haste for her Retribution spec and Crit in her Holy spec (and is someone who enjoys the min-max game), then a single set of armor may not be optimal.

    For her healing set, let’s assume this player also has one ring with Spirit, a shield with Spirit, and a trinket that procs on heals. The trinket is almost useless in her Retribution set. The shield is also useless, since Retribution is designed to wield a two-handed weapon. The ring will be sub-optimal because Spirit is useless to a Retribution Paladin, but if it has another valuable stat (e.g. Haste), it may still be worth using—again depending on how min-max-focused the player is.

    A more casual player would probably be fine just using the trinket anyway and using a lower Item Level two-handed mace when she plays Retribution. A more min-max player would probably want separate rings, cloaks, trinkets, neck pieces, and weapons to use in the different specs. A very min-max player—such as someone competing in world-first Mythic raid progression—might even want different heads, shoulders, chests, and so on depending on the mix of secondary stats. This player might even swap out gems between the two specs.

    This may seem like a lot to take in now, but we’ll continue to watch feedback and answer any additional questions where we can. And again, keep in mind that as with anything still in development, this information or some of the details will likely change as we progress.

    As always, we welcome your constructive feedback, and we look forward to reading what you think.


    Yuck
    I'm fine with them getting rid of hit and expertise, adding new secondary and tertiary stats, and all that if they would leave us with reforging to let us change things some if we end up with less than optimal stats on gear. What happened to letting us have more choices? That is what reforging does.
    11/26/2013 05:34 PMPosted by Crithto
    Philosophically, having a random element to gear helps to keep loot feeling exciting instead of reducing it to a checklist you just tick off.


    I think you guys are living in an alternate universe where you expect people to see these new stats as bonuses.

    They are not bonuses. Anything less than Warforged, gem slot and useful tertiary stat is a rubbish item. We would all like to be happy with what we get but the reality is this is not what will happen. The feeling of gear dropping will, at best case scenario, be exactly the same as now, or worst case scenario, far less exiting than now.
    11/26/2013 06:59 PMPosted by Sanctifìed


    Tell me how many hardcore raiding guilds do you see demanding that their raiders are geared in 3/4 Warforged gear?

    Because the sockets/tertiary stats are the exact same thing as warforged.


    they dont have to demand it cause warforged rains from the sky on 25's.

    these will be much more rare (if what they say is true).


    So wait, something is common, but it's not required.

    Something is more rare, and you think that means guilds are going to expect it?

    Do you actually understand the basic concept of supply and demand?
    I honestly hate what is going on with each expansion starting with MoP and continuing with WoD... Starts off great with some reveals that are really cool, then collapses in a pile of flaming "OMG why did they change that" moments. Anyway, back on topic...

    After thinking about the loot changes a bit, there are things that are good, things that are so-so and things that are just godawful. Initially I disliked the idea of removing stats like hit/exp/dodge/etc and making primary stats "Swap" with spec... but looking in my bags at multiple sets of gear... I'm coming to see that as a good thing.

    Removing lots of gems I find annoying as it feels like you're removing customization options, even if 90% of people follow a simple guide to gemming at least the option was there.

    Which leads me to the worst change, the RNG based random tertiary "bonuses" and random "warforged" gear. This is an incredibly bad idea and amazingly frustrating for me. As a 10 man raider in ToT we saw practically no WF gear. In SoO we've seen just a few items. The thought of waiting weeks to get a piece of gear and it not having an appropriate bonus just makes me want to stop raiding altogether.

    I can see raiders refusing to take gear because even though it's an upgrade it's not warforged, or it has "Durability" not "Cleave". You've taken RNG (does the item drop) and added RNG to it (is it warforged) then added another layer of RNG (does it have right stats). THIS IS NOT FUN. This is you dragging out how long it takes gear to excruciating levels.

    edit: This also adds to intra-raid animosity when someone gets lucky and scores a "perfect" piece on their first win while others wait and wait and wait...

    Please, please, please rethink this approach. If you must add tertiary stats make them gem sockets. Hell, make two different types of sockets. One with secondary stats and one with tertiary stats. You've already said gems will be harder to get - so make the gems the only "delay" point, not the acquisition of a piece of gear that frankly, may never drop.
    So because the gear changes with spec, does that mean its going to be impossible to use dps gear while in tank spec? I like to tank heroics in dps gear towards the end of expansions to move things along quicker. Also farm old raids using dps set while in blood spec.

    Instead of changing the gear depending on the spec we're in, could we change the gear ourselves depending on which set we'd prefer to use? Right click the piece of gear to cycle the alternating spec choices?
    I honestly hate what is going on with each expansion starting with MoP and continuing with WoD... Starts off great with some reveals that are really cool, then collapses in a pile of flaming "OMG why did they change that" moments. Anyway, back on topic...

    After thinking about the loot changes a bit, there are things that are good, things that are so-so and things that are just godawful. Initially I disliked the idea of removing stats like hit/exp/dodge/etc and making primary stats "Swap" with spec... but looking in my bags at multiple sets of gear... I'm coming to see that as a good thing.

    Removing lots of gems I find annoying as it feels like you're removing customization options, even if 90% of people follow a simple guide to gemming at least the option was there.

    Which leads me to the worst change, the RNG based random tertiary "bonuses" and random "warforged" gear. This is an incredibly bad idea and amazingly frustrating for me. As a 10 man raider in ToT we saw practically no WF gear. In SoO we've seen just a few items. The thought of waiting weeks to get a piece of gear and it not having an appropriate bonus just makes me want to stop raiding altogether.

    I can see raiders refusing to take gear because even though it's an upgrade it's not warforged, or it has "Durability" not "Cleave". You've taken RNG (does the item drop) and added RNG to it (is it warforged) then added another layer of RNG (does it have right stats). THIS IS NOT FUN. This is you dragging out how long it takes gear to excruciating levels.

    Please, please, please rethink this approach. If you must add tertiary stats make them gem sockets. Hell, make two different types of sockets. One with secondary stats and one with tertiary stats. You've already said gems will be harder to get - so make the gems the only "delay" point, not the acquisition of a piece of gear that frankly, may never drop.


    War forged is just one of three possible bonus effects. The other two are gem slot and tertiary stat. You have a small chance to get one, two, or all three bonuses on a piece of gear.


    they dont have to demand it cause warforged rains from the sky on 25's.

    these will be much more rare (if what they say is true).


    So wait, something is common, but it's not required.

    Something is more rare, and you think that means guilds are going to expect it?

    Do you actually understand the basic concept of supply and demand?


    I can see top guilds poaching players that happen to get a bunch of BiS items in the middle of progression.

    it will be like dragonwrath all over again :/
    Looking back to Cata this random possibility of getting something good is just like the gear out of Throne of the Four winds. From the Conclave of the Wind and Al'akir. Like this piece Soul Breath Belt.


    So wait, something is common, but it's not required.

    Something is more rare, and you think that means guilds are going to expect it?

    Do you actually understand the basic concept of supply and demand?


    I can see top guilds poaching players that happen to get a bunch of BiS items in the middle of progression.

    it will be like dragonwrath all over again :/


    This is a totally different issue from guilds REQUIRING that to recruit a person though.

    And not that big of a deal regardless.
    Looking back to Cata this random possibility of getting something good is just like the gear out of Throne of the Four winds. From the Conclave of the Wind and Al'akir. Like this piece Soul Breath Belt.


    Except that piece (and others like it) had random everything. It was more like Timeless Isle loot.

    Remember: In the new loot system secondaries are not random! Your secondaries are set based on the item. Only the bonus stats are random, and those have a much lesser effect on overall output than the core itemization.
    11/26/2013 06:12 PMPosted by Tricked
    Question, will the gear's secondary Stats from raids be static when they drop or are they rng and be random generated stats?


    The vast majority of raid gear will continue to to have pre-determined secondary stats, just as it does today. We may still put in a few alternative pieces with randomly-generated stats, much like we did in Throne of Thunder, but those will be rare exceptions.

    This extends to other types of content as well. Every once in a while, when there's a compelling reason to, we might let gear randomly roll secondaries. Timeless Isle is a good example of a situation in which that style of gearing makes sense. Again, that's the exception, not the rule. Under normal circumstances, secondary stats will still be pre-determined, not random.
    War forged is just one of three possible bonus effects. The other two are gem slot and tertiary stat. You have a small chance to get one, two, or all three bonuses on a piece of gear.


    Sorry, I must have misread that... in which case it's even worse... so it's even more layers of RNG. This is Diablo 3 trifecta items all over again.

    I was going to gift a friend WoW for christmas... I'm rethinking that now.
    I still think the best compromise is to allow reforging, ESPECIALLY with so many new stats.

    people are going to pass on haste gear if they hate haste. and so on. people will want amp/multistrike over cleave/lifesteal.

    yes, new stats are more interesting, but players will always go after the best performing stats.


    So wait, something is common, but it's not required.

    Something is more rare, and you think that means guilds are going to expect it?

    Do you actually understand the basic concept of supply and demand?


    I can see top guilds poaching players that happen to get a bunch of BiS items in the middle of progression.

    it will be like dragonwrath all over again :/


    For a single tier? That is pretty dumb. Anyone who is that shortsighted is pretty dumb and deserves any dummy that decides to raid with them. So let them "poach."

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