Blizzard failed to deliver this in Wrath

Battlegrounds
The BG queues were horrible in Wrath - with very little attention paid to it by Blizzard.

Sitting in 20 minute BG queues sucks, especially when you run into one of 3 things constantly:

1. going up against complete pre-made groups as a random group
2. afk botters on 90% of our teams bogging us down
3. zero healers on our teams vs. 3-4 on their team, makes it very unbalanced

If you run into these issues 3 or 4 times in a row, it can ruin a night of gaming. When you only have 2-3 hours to play on a Saturday and you get rolled in completely unfair matches it makes you want to take a break from the game.

This is a serious issue, it heavily affects the quality of the pvp experience. Hopefully you guys have something planned for it in cataclysm.
I strongly agree. I would love to say it's because one side is pro and one side sucks but there isn't much one can do against a premade with 4 healers while we have none and 2-3 people are botting (example of all 3 in 1 scenario and yes have seen it). There is just too much faults with the system atm that is making it difficult to find a redeeming quality in bgs anymore.
It sucks running into that with minute queues, could not imagine the frustration of that with waiting 10-20 minutes or more.
Happens all the time. Blizzard has a very unbalanced game both pve and pvp giving entire advantage to the elitist, and then brag about there millions of subscriptions... yet I would bet my life that xbox or ps3 users have more just because quality fps games are much more balanced around individual skill instead of "how many friends you have and how long your play each day"
It doesn't seem that hard to fix, especially now that battlegroups are being combined and it vastly increases the pool of people queuing to choose from:

1. Make premade groups play vs. premade groups as much as possible
2. Commit more resources to developing heuristics to catch botters
3. Ask people their role before they queue for a random bg - and put the same number of healers on each squad.
It doesn't seem that hard to fix, especially now that battlegroups are being combined and it vastly increases the pool of people queuing to choose from:

1. Make premade groups play vs. premade groups as much as possible
2. Commit more resources to developing heuristics to catch botters
3. Ask people their role before they queue for a random bg - and put the same number of healers on each squad.


1) This can be done and has been done in the past, but perhaps they have turned it off for some unknown reason.

2) Alas, you are asking them to write a program that catches a program. The botters will always be one step ahead of Blizzard. I am not saying they shouldn't try to keep it in check, but there is no way a computer is going to catch another computer. The human mind can see patterns and behavior infinitely better than a computer can. To kill botting it would take a) premades only (hence RBGS) or b) a human beining monitoring every single BG running. That is a fiscal impossibility.

3) It would be too easy to game the system. Queue up as a healer and then just pewpew. You are wanting the best of both worlds, the dps-healer ratio of a premade team but not the hassle of forming one. That is just not possible, I am afraid.

I am not picking on you, and I hope you have some counter points I have never thought of to my arguments above, but this stuff has come up a LOT over the years and there is just no answer for it.

1) This can be done and has been done in the past, but perhaps they have turned it off for some unknown reason.

2) Alas, you are asking them to write a program that catches a program. The botters will always be one step ahead of Blizzard. I am not saying they shouldn't try to keep it in check, but there is no way a computer is going to catch another computer. The human mind can see patterns and behavior infinitely better than a computer can. To kill botting it would take a) premades only (hence RBGS) or b) a human beining monitoring every single BG running. That is a fiscal impossibility.

3) It would be too easy to game the system. Queue up as a healer and then just pewpew. You are wanting the best of both worlds, the dps-healer ratio of a premade team but not the hassle of forming one. That is just not possible, I am afraid.

I am not picking on you, and I hope you have some counter points I have never thought of to my arguments above, but this stuff has come up a LOT over the years and there is just no answer for it.


1. ditto

2. Yeah I hear you - it's not possible to stop 100% of botters. But I feel like if they devoted more resources to it they could reduce the abuse somewhat. In about 20% of BGs now I get random teammates on their mount just following me (obviously botting) - or enemies who aimlessly walk around and cast spells on whoever gets near them.

3. Again this is a good point - people can definitely still game the system. But if they asked people their role and queued up the same number of 'healers' on each side, it might be an improvement to the current system (where we can get like 4 healers on our team and none on the opposing team)

Cheers
It doesn't seem that hard to fix,

Thats probably just because you dont realize what you're asking for.

1. Make premade groups play vs. premade groups as much as possible

This feature is already used in the game. The BG finder will attempt to match premades against other premades. However, if a premade group is waiting in the queue for a certain amount of time and no other team lines up to fight against it then the BG finder will pair them against a PuG, in order to prevent Premades from being completely unable to play.

2. Commit more resources to developing heuristics to catch botters

One reason Blizzard doesnt simply ban any toon that gets reported for Botting is that they are trying to watch the account and figure out how the bots are being used. It takes more time but makes it harder for people to AFK-honor grind in the future.

3. Ask people their role before they queue for a random bg - and put the same number of healers on each squad.

Unlike dungeons, healers arent required for running BGs, although they do help.
If you think ther queue times are bad now, for DPS, just see how long it takes when you need to wait for healers to queue up as well.

Thats probably just because you dont realize what you're asking for.

No, I'm pretty clear on what I'm asking for. Please keep comments constructive.


This feature is already used in the game. The BG finder will attempt to match premades against other premades. However, if a premade group is waiting in the queue for a certain amount of time and no other team lines up to fight against it then the BG finder will pair them against a PuG, in order to prevent Premades from being completely unable to play.

If it's already in the game, it's not very effective. Roughly 1 in 3 BGs I played this weekend were against premades - sometimes we even didn't kill anyone on the other team once, so the matches were pretty one-sided.


One reason Blizzard doesnt simply ban any toon that gets reported for Botting is that they are trying to watch the account and figure out how the bots are being used. It takes more time but makes it harder for people to AFK-honor grind in the future.

This is a fair point - and I'm not suggesting they immediately ban a toon that gets reported for botting. But putting more effort into catching botters would (I feel) reduce the number of people who try it.


Unlike dungeons, healers arent required for running BGs, although they do help.
If you think ther queue times are bad now, for DPS, just see how long it takes when you need to wait for healers to queue up as well.

I don't think this would adversely affect queue times - if no healers are queuing up, then just pit teams with zero healers against each other. It's not like a dungeon queue where you have to have a healer in order to get going.
I don't think this would adversely affect queue times - if no healers are queuing up, then just pit teams with zero healers against each other. It's not like a dungeon queue where you have to have a healer in order to get going.


What if you get a BG with no healers on either side, but one side has an elemental shaman and a shadow priest while the other has only pure dps classes? And why would a healer ever queue as a healer instead of just checking dps and still healing? Since your solution doesn't really fix the problem, and would probably be quite a bit of effort to actually implement anyways, it just doesn't seem justified.

I think rated BGs attempt to address a lot of your overall concerns, so hopefully they're a success and make BGs a slightly better place.
It doesn't seem that hard to fix,
Thats probably just because you dont realize what you're asking for.

No, I'm pretty clear on what I'm asking for. Please keep comments constructive.

I meant that you didn't realize how difficult what you where asking for was to accomplish.

If it's already in the game, it's not very effective. Roughly 1 in 3 BGs I played this weekend were against premades - sometimes we even didn't kill anyone on the other team once, so the matches were pretty one-sided.

The system is only as effective as the players queueing up allow it to be, and obviously there where alot more premades queueing up on the other faction.
If the system was turned off during the conversion to Rated BGs I havent heard anything about it.

I don't think this would adversely affect queue times

Why not, exactly? Do you think that requiring healers in BGs will magically make healers appear were none where before?

if no healers are queuing up, then just pit teams with zero healers against each other.

everything Totemtoter said in response to this is accurate.

It's not like a dungeon queue where you have to have a healer in order to get going.

Also, unlike a dungeon, you can't pause the entire game and ask the other team to wait while you find some more players to replace the DC's/Bots, get a better healer, or teach your FC what to do.
Because you are playing against live people instead of a computer AI you need the spaces to be filled as quickly as possible.
Need moar alliance
Need moar alliance


Just like in BGs! At least the good news for alliance is that no matter how badly we lose, another queue is only 30 seconds away.
What Horde is going through now is exaclty what Alliance used to go through and I for one don't feel sorry for you. It wasn't fixed before and it won't be fixed now!

I feel even less sorry for Horde now more then ever when all I see them doing is always camping newbe zones killing all the trainers and anything else they can find. No wonder it's getting bad, why would anyone want to play Alliance any more?

It's not up to Blizzard to fix it, Horde need to lay off trashing everything in site so people want to play Alliance.

Being a PvPer it doesn't bother me at all, love the insta queues. Blame your fellow Horde for causing the problem, and making it worse every day.
Need moar alliance


Just like in BGs! At least the good news for alliance is that no matter how badly we lose, another queue is only 30 seconds away.


This^^^^

I Factioned Change to Alliance to get out of 20min ques and to avoid zoning into a Horde loss with 2mins left. Staring at the screen for 20mins isnt much fun. Roll Alliance. Every win feels like an upset and you can increase your actual play-time exponentialy.
@Drelnu - you have some good points - but I feel like Blizzard developers could improve the situation for Horde players if they feel like it's getting worse for us - and I think it is.

@Oshana - yeah I agree a lot of these problems would probably go away if the population distribution was more balanced. Maybe Worgen will help alleviate some of these problems.

Cheers
The BG queues were horrible in Wrath - with very little attention paid to it by Blizzard.

Sitting in 20 minute BG queues sucks, especially when you run into one of 3 things constantly:

1. going up against complete pre-made groups as a random group
2. afk botters on 90% of our teams bogging us down
3. zero healers on our teams vs. 3-4 on their team, makes it very unbalanced

If you run into these issues 3 or 4 times in a row, it can ruin a night of gaming. When you only have 2-3 hours to play on a Saturday and you get rolled in completely unfair matches it makes you want to take a break from the game.

This is a serious issue, it heavily affects the quality of the pvp experience. Hopefully you guys have something planned for it in cataclysm.

Whats your proposal to fix the issue? Make BG queuing like LFD where you need a tank and healer to queue also? Requiring XX healers for a BG to start will make the BG queues even more unbearably long.

Get used to facing premades, when the alliance still get instant queues for a pre-made, they'll do that to win. Instant queues + instant wins, more props to the Alliance.

Until Blizzard actively tries balancing factions out, I don't really see queues ever improving.
@Thruul - You don't have to require healers - if there are 0 healers queuing up for one side, then just ensure that you line up a team on the other side that also has 0 healers. Shouldn't make wait times worse. There's definitely room for improvement, it's just a matter of resources.

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